The Breitling Watch Source Forums

I have decided to share the piece that I referenced when I first bought it, so here it is. This is obviously a part of my collection that no one knew that I had, and whilst I’m happy to share this piece as it’s so unusual, I would ask that people please respect the fact that this doesn’t mean that I’m going to start sharing everything that I have.

This is a highly unusual American Waltham model 1861 pocket watch – let me try and explain what it is that makes it so unusual. Firstly, it’s a size 10, which is one of the less common sizes – too small for most men’s pocket watches of the time and too large for most ladies’ watches. Size 10 equates to approximately 38mm – the entire case is around 45mm, excluding the crown and bow. Secondly, it is a fairly old piece and obviously the older that you get the more chance there is that pieces won’t survive. The serial number on this one dates it to 1870.



Where this piece really starts to set itself apart though is the condition – we all know about my photography skills, but hopefully you can see that this watch is in incredible condition – the dial is made of porcelain and is in perfect condition – there are a couple of pieces of dirt underneath the replacement crystal – the only non original part of the watch, but the dial is faultless – even under a high magnification loupe. It’s a little yellowed, but I think that’s excusable on something this old! The movement is pristine, and the case has only the normal swirls that you would expect on the flat surfaces – like a new Breitling bracelet clasp after 24 hours of wear!





The movement is the highest grade available for this model and size combination – Appleton Tracy (movements often came in different grade and jewel combinations and the grades often carried names – as in this instance). The movement was available in 7, 11 and 15 jewel versions – no indication of which one this is, and I’ll wait until I have it serviced to remove the plates to do a count. It’s a key wind and key set movement – typical of these older ones. There’s no way to know for sure if the key is original, but it appears to be period correct.





I am a watch lover, and I think anyone who has been here for any length of time knows that – I am excited by a watch movement that is in this good a condition 139 years after it was made – and yes, it runs and keeps accurate time. Even to me though, with my love of horology, this piece isn’t about the dial and the movement – this watch is about the case.



Technically, it’s a box hinge hunter case (although for the pocket watch purists it can’t be called a true box case as the crown side of the case doesn’t match the hinge side) with a cuvette (dust cover) inside the rear case. A hunter is simply a watch that has a cover over the dial – half hunter is a watch with a cover that has a circular cut out in the middle to show the time through, and an open face has no cover over the dial. The box hinge refers to the fact that the hinge extends beyond the curve of the case. As you can see the case still fits together perfectly, and opens to 90 degrees just like it should (they often open more as the hinges wear).





Most hunter cases are roughly cylindrical – the thickness of the case at the edge is approximately the same as the thickness in the middle. As you can see this case becomes very thin at the edge in a style known as clam shell for obvious reasons. This is achieved by extending the case further beyond the edge of the dial / movement to allow for the tapering.



The case is original and is truly perfect – there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. The level of detail is breathtaking – I wish my photography skills would allow me to show you just how special this case is. The front of the case has a small cartouche at the bottom designed for the owner’s initials, but these have never been engraved – adding to the value.



The watch itself – a 15 jewel American Waltham model 1861 Appleton Tracy grade is not particularly rare, it was produced in solid, if not spectacular, numbers, but obviously that was 139 years ago so there have been a lot of watches lost over the years. It is the case that this watch was made for that causes the rarity. There would have been very many different case designs – it’s possible that this is the only one produced with a case quite like this, but there is one thing that all Appleton Tracy 1861s had in common – and it’s the one thing that makes this watch so rare…….

They were only made for solid 18K gold cases.

Yes, this case – front, back and cuvette is solid 18K gold. As you might imagine, this is unusual – the vast majority of gold pocket watches are gold filled – a base metal with gold on either side, and the vast majority of solid gold pocket watches are 14K or less – a solid 18K gold watch is a rare find under ideal conditions. Unfortunately, over recent years they have become even rarer – the price of gold and the relatively low value on American pocket watches has resulted in a large number of these pieces being separated from their cases and having the case melted down for their gold content – a total tragedy. The situation is so bad that this watch without the case is virtually worthless – the market is only people like me who would be interested in buying one for parts – you just can’t’ find the cases to recreate them anymore.

So there you have it, something that is probably rather different than any of you were expecting, but something that I find simply stunning – it’s a significant addition to my collection. From a horology perspective, American watches are a great way to start collecting pocket watches – open faced, base metal American watches can regularly be bought for only $200 or so, sometimes less than $100. Hunter cases are more expensive, and obviously gold plate, gold filled and solid gold steps it up again, but these are not generally ridiculously inaccessible pieces for someone who wants to start building a collection. Ironically, the price of this one was likely subdued because the case engraving doesn’t have the same mass market appeal as a piece with ornate engraving of a village / animal / hunting scene, flowers, etc – although that’s exactly what makes this piece so rare.

I hope that you can all appreciate this watch; it’s a piece that genuinely excites me, and a piece that I am proud to own. For those of you with no real appreciation for vintage pieces, consider this – the modern Breitling that you appreciate today can still be running and keeping great time 139 years from now – it just takes a little care and attention.

That is an absolutely stunning watch! Beautiful in all aspects and a great write up to accompany your beautiful pics.
Truly Roff, thank you for sharing this with us.

Amazing!

Cheers.

One word "WOW" !!!

Absolutely beautiful! Thanks for sharing

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Breitling Colt GMT
Breitling Navitimer World
IWC Portuguese Automatic
Breitling Transocean Chronograph LE

very nice roff, great pics and description of each of them.

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Emergency
Bentley GT
Chrono Colt
Avenger Skyland Blacksteel
Steinhart LE#9/15

Beautiful piece, understand your excitement with it.
I like pocket watches too, have Zenith Grand Prix Paris 1900 and love it.

Amazing! Thank you for taking the time to share this with us. My father collects and repairs pocket watches so I have a little experience with them but not one like yours. A real jewel. Thanks again,
Mark

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Rolex 42mm Explorer
IWC Ingenieur

A few others too.

Thanks for the share, Andy..I love it. I am a big fan of intricate engraving and this fits the bill!. I even looked into going to engraving school once, till I found out the cost. Excellent choice. For some reason I had a guess that it was a pocket watch, maybe from the interest in that really old one you were looking at a few months ago. Now to get you a proper camera set up like Ron!

Scott

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Breitling Steelfish(black)
Breitling Steelfish(silver)
Panerai PAM 312
Bell & Ross BR03-92 Phantom
Steinhart BreitlingSource LE #5/15

Really fascinating. The amount of labor that is in that watch is just staggering.
Thanks for sharing such a unique piece.

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Coral Dial SuperOcean
Black Dial Avenger Skyland
Arctica Dial Bentley G/T Racing

Coral Club Founding Father

Stunning! As usual Professor, in sharing your excitment and acquisition, you educate us! I knew almost nothing about pocket watches before your post, now I know nothinf plus a bit about cases and movements. Thanks!!!!

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Chronomat, Steel/Gold, MOP Dial, 2-tone band (2008)
Super Avenger Black Baton Dial (2009)
Bentley B04 GMT Silver Dial (2013)
Avenger Blacksteel Baton Dial (2014)

Thank you for sharing Roff - a stunning piece and great write up. I also didn't and don't know a lot about pocketwatches so appreciated the description. Amazing too that it's running that well after 139 years. I can understand why you are genuinely excited about the acquisition, congratulations again. Beautiful!

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Happines is Good Health and a Bad Memory.
"Ingrid Bergman"

I'm actually really pleased you decided to share this openly in the end Roff, because it's a truly spectacular piece and (as the posts so far will attest) a lot of guys on here are genuinely interested in it.

Not being a pocket watch afficionado I'm frankly amazed that the engraving should detract potential buyers! Personally I would INIFINITELY prefer something like that than something with an Alpine village scene on it. The workmanship looks absolutely staggering. Superb piece Mr R.

Fantastic.

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Driver8

Site Moderator

That was referred on someone's initials.

Are you sure? I thought Roff was referring to the general engraving on the case at that point -

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Driver8

Site Moderator

At that point, but that kind of engraving would increase it's value not subdue - ironically.

Someone's initials would subdue it's value.

Now I see what did you wanted to say.
Sorry, English is not my first language.