The Breitling Watch Source Forums

Breitling is more than just a "case and dial" manufacture". Breitling's "CHRONOMETRIE" division is responsible for manufacturing the production Breitling Tourbillion movement as well as other parts that are used to modify ETA movements. Breitling is more than capable of producing its own movements. The question is not whether or not they can produce an in-house movement, the question is WHEN?

According to this site ETA makes the base movement for the Tourbillion, 2892-A2. Even if Breitling did make it it's certainly not mass produced.

The "CHRONOMETRIE" division is nothing more than a marketing front, if they wanted certified movements from ETA they could just buy them. Sure, they rework the standard movement and make it better but they can already buy it with the improved components. It's all marketing.

Anyone can get into the watch business. Design a case and dial and buy a movement.

Or you can just buy all the parts and do it yourself.

_________________
This is a Rochefoucauld, the thinnest water-resistant watch in the world. Singularly unique, sculptured in design,hand-crafted in Switzerland.
In Philadelphia it's worth Fifty bucks.

"...if they wanted certified movements from ETA they could just buy them. Sure, they rework the standard movement and make it better but they can already buy it with the improved components. It's all marketing."

Hmm.. makes me thinking. Do Breitling buy the standard ETAs and rework them or do they buy the top-grade-ETAs and rework them? And what makes you think, that they don't add any improve- and enhancements to the already top-grade-ETAs? Have you visited them in Switzerland? I know, there's a lot about marketing, but I just want to clarify this issue...

V.

Guys - Just to be clear on this, Breitling use the Chronometer spec (i.e. the top level) ETA/Valjoux movements, that they modify and rework to greater or lesser degrees. The level of rework is still open for debate as we seem unable to get a definitive answer - perhaps one of us should email Breitling and ask, because anything else is just supposition and assumption. But either way it will be somewhere between simply adding decorated bridges and rotors, to IWC levels of replacing major parts. Whether you believe that any of this constitutes a movement being called anything other than a modified ETA, well, only you can decide.

The fact is that currently Breitling do not make any of their own movements. Fact. When they produce something that they designed from the ground up, right from the drawing board to a physical watch then, and only then, will they be a manufacturer.

At the end of the day, it's up to each of us to decide if we think that Breitling is currently anything more than (to use txturbo's words) "just a case and a dial", or something greater than that. And after answering that for yourselves, you should then ask, does it really matter?

Again, only each of us can decide that for ourselves.

_________________
Driver8

Site Moderator

"The level of rework is still open for debate as we seem unable to get a definitive answer - perhaps one of us should email Breitling and ask..."

OK, who on this forum has the best contact to Breitling and who's going to ask? Whereas on the various IWC fora some conclusive facts about the level of upgrading an ETA are shared amongst the crowd, this is still THE open question as regards Breitling level of finishing.

"At the end of the day, it's up to each of us to decide if we think that Breitling is currently anything more than (to use txturbo's words) "just a case and a dial", or something greater than that."

For me, Breitling do some improvements to a top-grade ETA, therefore for me they're more than just a case and dial designer. They're something like a "tuner". Enhancement is there, although I confess that there's a lot of marketing blabla as well. But that's always the case.

"And after answering that for yourselves, you should then ask, does it really matter?"

Good point.

V.

Just to be clear on the tourbillon.......

The movement is based on the ETA 2892-A2, which is the predominant high quality modular movement platform these days. Breitling Chronometrie add a number of complications to these platforms - everything from the 30 second chrono on a Motors to the tourbillon cage.

Well if that is the case then the modifications are truly so they can "brand it".
If the movement is already Chronometer spec I would be willing to bet that 95% of what they do to it is cosmetic. Then they just assemble and ship it to the testing institute.

If you were a manufacture of a product and your supplier shipped you an assembly that you constantly had to rework wouldn't you fix that problem with the supplier? Setting up a huge "rework" center is the last thing you would do.

In reality would anyone care if the movement said "ETA" on it instead of Breitling? If there catalog stated that they used the finest grade ETA movements would your perception of the company change?

_________________
This is a Rochefoucauld, the thinnest water-resistant watch in the world. Singularly unique, sculptured in design,hand-crafted in Switzerland.
In Philadelphia it's worth Fifty bucks.

ETA (and Valjoux) produce three movement grades. The highest grade, which is what Breitling buy, is designed to be 'capable of meeting COSC specs'. Read that carefully.

It is the only one of the three grades that is produced to tolerances that can be COSC certified. That's not good enough for Breitling - whether we agree or not, they want every single movement to meet COSC specs, and of course they want that first time through.

They therefore make a number of functional modifications / replacements to improve the grade of parts that they still do not consider to be consistently high enough quality. It is certainly not 95% cosmetic work.

"If you were a manufacture of a product and your supplier shipped you an assembly that you constantly had to rework wouldn't you fix that problem with the supplier?"

Here's what I THINK: Breitling are dedicated to rebuild the ETA with single parts matching best possible each other, in other words: to minimize or even eliminate "tolerance variation". They fine-tune the movement. For enhancing performance and durability this is an essential benefit to the movement. Most if not all Breitling movements pass the chronometer test - this can't be said of Omega's and Rolex ones: Quite a few just go back to the factory where they have to be adjusted again.

V.

If the movement is sold as being COSC capable what could they possibly do to it? Assemble it with cosmetic enhancements and test it in house before sending it for certification? If they don't publicly say exactly what they do and the movement is already sold as capable it must be mostly cosmetic.

_________________
This is a Rochefoucauld, the thinnest water-resistant watch in the world. Singularly unique, sculptured in design,hand-crafted in Switzerland.
In Philadelphia it's worth Fifty bucks.

If your statement is correct, and I am not stating that it is not, how could the watch be serviced? If you sent it to Breitling for repair and they needed to change a part of the movement would it need to be certified again? Would parts need to be specially matched? Seems like it would create a service nightmare.

_________________
This is a Rochefoucauld, the thinnest water-resistant watch in the world. Singularly unique, sculptured in design,hand-crafted in Switzerland.
In Philadelphia it's worth Fifty bucks.

"If you sent it to Breitling for repair and they needed to change a part of the movement would it need to be certified again?"

Every watch brand offering ETA-based chronometers will service the watch and give it back to the customer without have it certified another time. I guess, Breitling internally verify and test it and it will be as good as new, resp. would pass the test any further time. No COSC movement will be re-certified, maybe there are brands that would do it upon customer request, but I wouldn't see any purpose.

V.

"If they don't publicly say exactly what they do and the movement is already sold as capable it must be mostly cosmetic."

IWC don't tell us either, at least not officially. The information available about their enhancements to the 7750 are taken from watch fora like this and aren't officially. Some poster has heard about their enhancements at first hand and distributed the information on the net. No watch brand would officially tell us in detail - for comprehensive reasons ("Let sleeping dogs lie"?).

But maybe there's somebody amongst us who has good contacts to Breitling headoffice... to learn more about this issue... ?

V.

That implies that the highest ETA grade is the best you can do - clearly that isn't the case. Breitling buys ebauches - kits. It is absolutely no effort (and minimal cost to replace an ETA / Valjoux escapement with a 3rd party escapement, and the quality is immediately improved. And an escapement is not a cosmetic modification.

The problem with this whole arguement is that no one knows what is being done. Most of what is being said here is speculation and opinion. Glad you guys are able to keep it civil, even with all the provocation

At any rate, Breitling purchased Kelek in 1997, which was renamed as Breitling Chronometrie. Kelek is/was a manufacture, and made some serious advances in watchmaking over the years. Assuming that the engineers at Kelek are still there, Breitling has an entire division that is more than capable of designing an in-house movement. Some of the modules added to the Breitling watches in the years are said to be developed in-house at Breitling Chronometrie, though I am not exactly sure which. This makes it much more than a "marketing front", especially given that Breilting is rumoured to be releasing their in-house movement soon, which was probably developed at Breitling Chronometrie.

_________________
BreitlingSource Admin
http://www.breitlingsource.com - http://blog.breitlingsource.com