The Breitling Watch Source Forums

Hello everyone,

I am writing this as I am new to vintage Breitling collecting (or any brand for that matter). When I come to forums like this I seek expertise from everyone here willing to share it and learn from it. Today I learned something the hard way, and I think it is worth sharing the experience. I will not burn anyone by mentioning names, that is not the point of this post. The point is to help noobs like me navigate their first steps in this brave new world of vintage watch restoration. So apologies in advance for the long post.

To give you guys context, I picked up a very cheap Top Time 2000 on the Bay. I thought it would be a fantastic opportunity to venture into my first restoration project on a watch that I love. My first move was to contact a guy (i will refer to him as guy #1) that is very highly talked about in this and other Breitling forums. Send some pictures, ask for an estimate and get the ball rolling. Simple enough? Boy was I wrong. So guy #1 mentions the watch is in a very bad state and recommends not working on it until I get a new dial (or basically sell it and get another in mint condition). This being my first venture into restoring a timepiece I'm not about to quit just yet...

I proceed to send the watch directly to Breitling. They in turn suggest to forward it to their Vintage service guys (let's call them guy #2), and I do that. They were most willing to work on the watch, providing a new dial and tachy scale (remember, the one guy #1 said he needed for this to be worth it?). The one thing they cannot source and mention cannot work on is the case. The case has been damaged at some point by someone hacking away trying to open the case back (I assume). So now I will have a perfectly restored mechanism, dial, hands, etc... but no case.

I don't remember if it was in a post here or in another forum where someone said (paraphrasing): "this is a small community and watchmakers don't get offended by knowing you did something with someone else and another bit with them. It's a collaborative environment" BOY WAS I WRONG TO BELIEVE THIS!

So my next move is to try to source the case or figure out how to fix the one I have. I remember Guy #1 has a strong background in metallurgy and sells this as one of his strong sides to his craft, and I really want to work with him because he is so highly regarded in the forums by people who are experts on vintage Breitlings. So this being a "collaborative environment" and all, I proceed to tell Guy #1 how Guy #2 was able to source the dial he had mentioned he needed, but could not work on the case. Asked if he could work on the case and the cost. I was not prepared for the response.

I am not going to copy the email as I suspect there may be forum rules about that, and again, the point is not to burn the individuals and rather to educate noobs like me. But let's just say Guy #1 was offended and pissed. Things like (paraphrasing): "I'm sure Guy #2 should have the resources to find someone to do this for you" ... and "I'm not interested in working on this now or anytime in the future" were mentioned.

So I leave this experience here, for anyone new and old, who like me, are naive enough to think this is a collaborative effort of getting a timepiece back to life with the best guys working on their respective strong fields. In this, like in other industries there are egos, there are people with feelings and we must navigate through them. Next time I guess I will approach the situation as if it were a completely different watch altogether and not be honest as to the path the timepiece has taken to get to the point where you need that person's expertise. I will not be as open and honest as I was, expecting empathy from the person on the other side of the emails or phone. I know I closed a door for myself today and that is a sad thing. It certainly shows me one of the reasons why dealing with vintage timepieces can be difficult and challenging. It does not however, detract me from wanting to get my baby in tip top shape. It does make me think twice about attempting this a second time. Let's see how this first attempt goes.

I hope my experience helps someone else not to make the same mistake. Sorry again for the long post.

Best

Carlos V

Carlos - sounds like you did not make a great first purchase if the dial needs to be replaced and the case needs "metallurgy" done to it. Most Top Times are one the less expensive side of vintage Breitling, and sounds like you are doubling or tripling your money to get it fixed. Its not common to send a watch from one watchmaker to another to get it fixed to be honest. Unless the watch is super rare, be patient and hopefully all you need is something more straigtforward like service and crown replacement.

My personal rule is I don't but a watch with a bad dial, and fellow contributors Waynepjr1 taught me early not to buy a watch with incorrect hands - also a good rule unless you know where you can buy new ones - you could wait forever if not.

David

Thanks buddman, I totally get what you're saying. Money aside though... I just want to get this puppy in tip top shape. My dad used to collect cars; if he needed a paint job, he took it to the paint guy, if he needed a transmission, to the transmission guy, same for AC. I figured this would be the same kind of thing. The guy that sells himself as an expert in metal and casing, give him the case. He clearly said he could not source the dial - he could retouch it, but I stayed away from that. I know that much. I am looking at this as a learning experience (where I have to put money into the learning part). It may cost more than the actual watch will be worth in the end, but I don't plan on profiting from it. I just want to have a perfect timepiece with all original parts.

I have learned from this to not buy anything with a subpar dial (as you mentioned as well), or with a damaged case. This however was not visible in the pictures when I purchased the watch (and did I mention it was REALLY cheap when I did?).

Now I guess I will just keep a look out and wait for another cheap donor comes up where I can scoop up the case.

Carlos V

can you post a photo of your watch?

Sure thing...

Yes, that case didn't look economically recoverable. Gold plate? If I was you I would just sell it as a parts watch and then look for another. It will be cheaper in the end.

I'm already knee deep in it... It's being serviced by Guy #2 as we speak. Should have it back sometime in 2016. Like I said it will now have a New original dial and tachy scale, hands and a serviced mechanism. Just no case.

The reason I picked a Top Time to learn the ropes was precisely because it is the lower end tier of vintage Brietlings. And I now understand I will have invested more than what the watch is worth. But I will write it off as learning cost this time around. ..That is my story and I'm sticking to it, lol

Thanks again for your help!

get the watch back and sell it off as a parts watch, write off the difference as "learning costs".

finding a good case donor will be hard to impossible, the service and parts by "Guy #2" will typically be more than a decent TT 200x market value, you are throwing good money after bad.

Find a watch you like, post it here for verification - and forget about this one.

I've seen you search for Wakmann cases on other fora ..... don't. more good money after bad.

and this is what "Guy #1" was trying to tell you. sound advice.

This is a sad story and you have been unlucky. Toptime 2000's are not the easiest movements to work on as they are a top loader which means you take off the crystal to pop the movement out, it has a split crown to enable you to do this and because of this it's a bit of a bugger if you need to keep adjusting/regulating things as you have to go through all the hassle of taking the movement fully out of it's case, so I tend to think watch repairers may not want this hassle. Your picture of the case looks like someone has really butchered the side to get the case back off this should never have been attempted and I agree with Fred that your best course of action is to sell the dial/movement/hands, I think it will have either a Venus 188 or a Valjoux 7730, you should get a little more back if it has a Venus.

Hope it works out for you

Thank you Buddman, Fred and Supermoto. I look up to you guys and truly value the advice and will certainly keep it in mind when deciding what to do with the watch. @Fred, an article with you and Rene I read in Fratello Watches was one of the reasons I turned to the Top Time in the first place...

I just wanted to take a step back and state that the purpose of the original post was to document my experience and have it here in case someone else is considering restoring a watch for the first time like me, and knowing what is out there to face.

What I take from this learning experience it that people may need to be prepared to do everything in one place, even if the result could be better achieved in stages with different sources. And if you do, you better make sure they don't find out you "cheated" on them with anyone else or they could go from being totally helpful to completely dismissive in a heartbeat.

I meant to be as polite and gentle about this as I could as not to burn anyone in the process. That is not the point of the post. Apologies if I have offended anyone in the process. Not my intention. Again, thank you all for your advice on how to proceed with the watch!

First off we all pretty much know who you're referring to. Guy #1 I've been using for over 10 years and is on my Xmas gift list. What I admire about him is he'll tell me straight up whether I'm wasting my time or if there is any hope. He has always worked with me when I've sent him a collection of parts and want a working watch in return. He has also sent me back watches that he doesn't want to work on. I don't have a problem with that. He doesn't have a source for factory replacement parts like Guy #2 so I make sure what I now send him he won't have a problem with. He's relatively quick although his popularity has slowed down turn around time in the last few years. Guy #2 does great work too and I send him pieces when I need hard to find parts to fix the problem. Down side is the cost and length of time for a return. I do have one watch currently for sale that I sent to five different watchmakers to fix. Guy #1 was the first and told me he thought it would be a major problem to fix if fixable at all, like you, I thought I'd try someone else for a second opinion. That guy kept the watch a couple of months and returned it (no charge) because he couldn't fix the problem. I sent it to two other watchmakers with the last keeping the watch almost a year before finally giving up and returning it to me last week. To make a long story short, if I had stuck with Guy #1's initial assessment I would have saved a lot of money and time. But, this is how you learn and get experience into which watchmaker will get your business. There's a lack of experience in the watchmaking field and good guys are hard to find and popular watchmakers can pretty much pick and choose what they want to work on. Life in the big city.

not that this thread needs my confirmation but everything that needed to be said is said :

I send watches to 'Guy #1' , if he fixes its great , if he tells me its not fixable I believe him , I only need 'Guy #2' if I somehow need factory parts that are absolutely nowhere to be found even after 10 years of searching

maybe the lessons that we can all learn from this are :
-: stainless steel & gold cases might be repairable through laserweld , base metal gold plated cases cannot be repaired
-: source the parts yourself but it may take a few years
-: ensure you know the market value after service & repair , if purchase price + time + service costs exceed that value , walk away

I always speak highly of #1 and #2 , but I send watches to either depending on what needs to be done

I understand your frustration but to me this seems a typical unlucky situation with a relatively low value watch to complicate things

Rgds
Rene

_________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Breitling and Boats. The rest I wasted" - mostly Elmore Leonard

Carlos, with all due respect, what "someone else considering restoring a watch" should learn from this is:

a) ask, before you buy.
b) if you failed to follow advice a) > ask, before you commit to unreasonable restoration strategies

and above all: listen to advice given

Happy hunting, let this first attempt not taint your love for vintage watches !

Would you guys help me out and establish what would be the market value of a MINT 2000 Top Time?

typical asking prices between 1.2-1.5k, some black reverse higher, but auctions are totally unpredictable ....
"market" thought this was worth abt. $750 ....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/141786559431