The Breitling Watch Source Forums

Hi everyone,

Hope you've all had a terrific weekend and that all's well. I've got a question about a 1950s vintage ref 769D that I believe should have a Venus 175. I'm new to vintage Breitling and I'm trying to figure out the build quality of the cases, dials and movements, particularly as compared to other Swiss manufacturers, Omega as an example, Heuer as another.

Is the Venus 175 a stout movement and is it prized for anything in particular, a la finish, smoothness of chrono functions, accuracy? I've read about the Valjoux 22 and 23, and I know Lemania was building good calibers back then, how does the 175 stack up?

Vintage Universal and Longines seem to be getting a lot of chatter on the forums and secondary markets but I rarely hear about Breitling outside of dedicated forums. Is this brand a bit overlooked or is it really in a different category than Omega, etc. I think Breitling chronongraphs from the '50s and '60s have beautiful dials and I really love the fact that they were built as functional tools, I'm just curious to learn more about their quality.

If anyone has any thoughts I'd be so appreciative and of course if there are wrist shots of the Chronomat I'd love to see them. They're great looking timepieces and I hope you all wear your respective watches in good health and that you're all on the hunt for the next one. Thanks very much, I'm looking forward to hearing from you. Take good care.

G

you are raising some interesting questions here - no time for an in-depth answer, both Longines and Universal Geneve have a very dedicated collector's community, clearly more than Breitling; maybe the fact that both use mainly in-houses (or UG as quasi in-house through their acquisition of Martel) movements, both produced some extraordinary watches, no doubt. But Breitling was one of the major innovators in the chronograph arena, although they licenced their patents and had others manufacture the movements for them. In the late 1930s moved from Landeron Hahn to Venus SA, most chronographs (besides some Valjoux triple dates and the 72 in the earliest Navitimers) used Venus ebauches. The Venus 175 is an excellent crown wheel chronograph movement, sibling of the V178 used in the Navitimers and AVI; with smooth and crisp chrono actuation.

The Chronomat 769, the first sliderule chronograph, might be the quintessential Breitling, the design DNA of that watch, launched in 1942, influences and "defines" Breitling until today.

Here's an excellent article about the Chronomat, google-translated from the original French:
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... nomat.html

another good article about the Chronomat: http://forums.watchuseek.com/f39/breitl ... -9103.html
note that several 769 shown in Altro's article have incorrect hands, so beware taking those as a reference.

some examples - the rarest 1940s Chronomat, Venus 178 ref. 786


mid 1940s ref. 769





mid 1950s ref. 769

Come on Fred, give us the in-depth answer

well, the "why isn't Breitling as popular among collectors as ...." question is an interesting one indeed and can be discussed for hours.

Just an instant observation on ebay , key words watches / worlwide / xxx :
=> breitling = 11806 items for sale
=> heuer = 12222
=> omega = 35515
=> rolex = 40478
=> universal geneve = 938 or universal = 3646
=> longines = 11357

WatchFred,

Thank you for the information and thank you very much for the photos, those are all beautiful. Are they all original? If so you've found some brilliant examples. Good on you.

It seems that in the last three years UG has sort of gone a bit crazy. I'm seeing AeroCompax(s) with black dials going for $15,000 Euro. Wow.

You mentioned that UG has a quasi in-house movement, are they that robust or is it a case where the enthusiasts have bid the price up simply for love of the brand? Is a UG movement from the 1950s noticeably better than a Breitling from the same era?

Chris

yes, the watches I post as a reference are original, I would have pointed out imperfections if they were not.

yes, prices for black Aero-Compax have gone a bit crazy, but so have the prices for Breitling's early Valjoux Navitimers or "digital" ref. 765 AVI, similar price ranges or higher.

noticeably better - now that might surprise you. UG are wonderful watches, but build quality on 1940s and 1950s pieces is, if anything, inferior to Breitling's; Breitling cases and dials are of better quality.

UG fanatics will disagree, but I base that on comparing my Aero-Compax and other UG from that period to my Premiers, Chronomat, Navitimers or especially the 765 AVI.

could you be so kind to edit the title of your OP and remove that "D" from the Chronomat ref. no., it might confuse members who research the model.

I agree 100% with Fred about quality of steel cases , the " Eversteel" used by UG was lower in quality than stainless steel used by Breitling .

Breitling was trusting Venus and Valjoux calibers issued in industrial quantities and used by other brands . Most of parts remain available nowadays and request no major adjustment when replaced . Concerning UG calibers , parts are not easy to find and have to be adjusted individually . Production of those specific calibers ( designed by Martel, used by UG, Zenith, Jaeger ) was lower and less industrial , and it is a tough job to adjust each part to be replaced .
You also have to consider that mostly the complicated UG versions are prized - Tri-Compax and Aero -Compax . A Compax is not very sought after . A moonphase Chronomat or Datora is infinitely rarer than a Tri-Compax , so there is no real price reference for those hen teeth Breitlings.

interesting/nice to have you agree regarding that very subjective quality assessment, Phil; as you too collect both brands. and yes, repairing some of the more complicated Martel movements can be a true pain; even IF parts are available, they rarely fit correctly without a lot of additional work - but that might add to the "thrill" some collectors are looking for ?

Fred, imho and little experience in UG Tri-Compax , poor availability of the parts makes most of the watchmakers reluctant to implicate in restoring them . Many Tri-Compax have been salvaged by unqualified guys , and due to the lack of parts, they stay in a drawer .
You also have to consider that UG closed in the very early 70's and despite a short rebirth , felt down in notoriety .
Ask to newbies, everybody knows Breitling as UG is known from a very small circle .
Personaly my starter for UG has been to source an interesting batch of parts and that enabled me to seek after project watches and gear in looking for a watchmaker .

I agree that vintage Breitling seems to have been overlooked by collectors and I fail to understand why though many collectors mention too crowded dials etc. on Breitlings for not collecting them. But maybe that's a good thing since one can still purchase vintage Breitlings at reasonable prices vs the competition. Breitling does have a rich history and some beautiful vintage watches (I love the the 784/785/Unitime and offcourse the iconic Navitimer).

WatchFred, Saabreit and Cruvon,

Thanks very much for the thoughts on vintage Breitling vs UG, I appreciate that. I feel like one of these days the Breitlings will catch on and prices will go up, again, very similarly to Longines and UG. I read an interview with the CEO of Panerai and he said that when they began buying pieces for the Panerai museum in the mid 1990s he was picking up Radiomirs for $2,000 Euro...they go for six figures in today's market.

The auction environment is a strange place. Vacheron, Breguet, vintage AP, Jaeger, Blancpain, Omega, are all by and large undervalued, particularly compared to Rolex and Patek. And Breitling is hardly mentioned at all, you very rarely see vintage pieces at the large US auction houses, at least in my experience.

Is it true that Europe will have a larger selection of Breitling, UG, Patek, Omega, etc than North America?

I see beautiful examples of all sorts of manufacturers on the websites of overseas sellers or retailers that I don't find on the US sites. I suppose what I'm getting at is because I'm an American buying with USD I get killed on the conversion to British Sterling, then add to that the buyer's premiums, plus international shipping and import fees and a really interesting piece that is nicely affordable is now obviously more expensive. That said, if you have to buy them from Europe and go through it to get a really great piece, then so be it. I'm just curious where some of ya guys come up with your most beautiful examples.

Looking forward to continuing the conversation with you all.

G

I have worked on all of these movements. In terms of manufacturing quality and reliabilility I would rate them as follows:
1) Longines - their chronograph movements are far supperior to anything in the nearby price range. The same thing is true of their standard vintage watch movements which in my opinion are better than Omega.
2) Valjoux - even with some of the common parts failures in these movements, the overall performance is great.
3) Lemania - there is a reason that Omega used these movements in a most of their chronographs.
4) Venus - a robust design and very reliable movement. Best in its price class.
5) Angelus - I have worked on a lot of these and they are very well built. An overlooked but great movement.
6) Universal - not bad but not as good as any of the above. No techical reason they should be worth more. The support for the stem in most of these is a very poor design. The rest of the 2 and 3 register movement are boring designs.
I would like to hear other watchmaker opinion on the above, Craig

_________________
S. Craig Bergsma

Totally agree with Craig on the list to include the Longines non chrono movements. Longines 30L is my favorite manual wind. Classic!

Wayne