The Breitling Watch Source Forums

OK, so let's try this.

I started a thread in the Off Topic section a few days ago about how we can breathe new life into the forum - not suggesting that it's dead, just perhaps not so diverse as previously. Based on some of the posts in that thread here's an attempt to generate some more spirited debate. My thread so my rules - anything goes here (subject to the normal rules) but any photo that is posted and generates a full quote and / or "Looks great" response will earn the guilty party an immediate ban (I'll let you figure out whether I am joking)! So here goes....

Breitling will never achieve the credibility that it seeks as an upper tier brand until it does more with its in house movements. After 5 years it has basically one movement with a couple of bolt on modules, while other manufactures have multiple base calibres, numerous complications and some haute horlogerie pieces. Tourbillons are becoming a little passé because they have been done by so many, but Breitling needs something that lifts them to that upper echelon - an alarm (or repeater), a perpetual calendar or similar. They also need a 3 hand and more variety in the chronographs. The 'in house' quartz announced at Basel is interesting but will always be niche and the lack of fanfare makes me wonder how in house the details really are.

A deliberately somewhat provocative position, but genuinely held sentiments, so what say you?

OK, I'll bite. I'm not sure I want Breitling to become too high up the tier (AP, PP, Rolex, JLC, etc.). This just brings higher prices. I hope they don't have to expand their sales quantities to the levels of Omega to survive either. 150,000-200,000 of good quality pieces and variety is just fine. Bigger is not always better.

With that said, a couple of pieces with added features, such as mechanical alarm, power reserve, would keep them interesting. Slow, controlled evolution of their in-house movement capability is the way to go.

Remember, these are "instruments for professionals' not jewelry for the Hollywood crowd, ,

_________________
Chrono Jetstream
Montbrilliant 1903
Aerospace E79362

I agree to a point, and with no quoting whatsoever . I think if they truly aspire (highly debatable in my mind) to be an upper echelon brand in the vein of Patek, IWC etc... I believe they do need to make the in house movements the standard, not the exception. They absolutely need to expand, complicate and show the horologic world that they can impress. A Breitling Grand Complication (apologies to IWC) would certainly do the trick if it was distinctly Breitling in style.
Previous threads have commented on the logarithmic (nearly) rise in price over the last 10 years, even relative to other brands, so they are certainly starting the price themselves toward that echelon, sadly without the stones to justify it to any real degree.
I think that a yearly, Basel introduced, haute horology piece or two would set the watch world on it's ear a bit and truly vault the brand to where they say they want to be. As the Professor mentioned; repeater, true perpetual calendar, rattapante etc.. all with the in house would get, gain and keep attention and lend credence to the brand. Maybe even a manual wind???
I further agree that the lack of fanfare, or even details, about the "in-house" quartz is whelming. Not under whelming, just whelming. I am not sure what the driving force for that would be anyway. Even more to the point I think it is actually moving away from where they should be going to achieve upper status in the watch pecking order. "I like your AP, but have you seen my new in house quartz???" Seriously?!?!
BTW, as maybe it goes without saying, but less f#$%ing rubber too.
All other opinions are abject, uneducated crap!!!!
(trying to stir the pot!)

_________________
Chronomat, Steel/Gold, MOP Dial, 2-tone band (2008)
Super Avenger Black Baton Dial (2009)
Bentley B04 GMT Silver Dial (2013)
Avenger Blacksteel Baton Dial (2014)

I'm not sure if it's really Breitling's goal to enter the world of true high-end haute horology like the AP's, PP, VC's and ALS's of the world, but I think it would benefit them to expand their line-up a bit higher by offering some complications and variations. I think their position in the market in the general area of Omega, Rolex and Zenith is fine, but they really do need to step up their game or they risk really falling out of favor with people. I don't mind them getting into the 10-20k range if the complications justify it rather than just quickly jacking up their prices.

I agree that it is ridiculous that they haven't done more with their in-house movement at this point. There are much smaller shops like Maurice Lacroix that keep popping out in-house after in-house movement with very unique and interesting designs. Their designs aren't everyone's cup of tea, but at least they push the envelope and contribute to the art of horology. They are using silicon in multiple movement parts in their new gravity piece which I love http://www.ablogtowatch.com/maurice-lac ... e-gravity/ and things like this bring a lot of attention to their brand. I feel like breitling has been relatively stagnant since releasing their first in-house movements. It would be nice to see them innovate and evolve that movement and come out with something new and interesting. They also haven't dabbled in any new or unique materials like ceramic, which is all the rage these days. I love the Omega ceramic watches. I think they are falling behind brands like Omega.

Here is a pic of the new gravity for those that don't want to read about it in the link. They basically created the "first watch equipped with an oscillator assortment (balance roller, lever and escapement wheel) entirely made of silicon, which has a lighter weight than metal and no need for lubrication."

I don't think that Breitling is trying to (or should try to) put themselves among the likes of PP, AL&S, etc, but if you look at price points they overlap heavily with the likes of JLC and IWC (among others) and align completely with the Zeniths and Omegas of the world. In my opinion they can't hold a candle to any of those brands from a horological standpoint.

I understand that it's harder to be truly innovative when you are independent because if you fall flat then you don't have a large, diverse, multi-national to pick you up (ML have an advantage there), but some of these things aren't innovative any more. BoneDoc, they do have an in house manual wind, but it's the auto with the rotor removed.

I wonder whether part of it is the branding with Bentley - the one tourbillon that they commercially sold (it wasn't in house) was branded as Bentley, and the single piece high complication pocket watches that they used to do at Basel every year (maybe still do) were branded as Bentley as well. Perhaps the contract requires that branding to have the most complicated pieces and alignment in that niche may be harder to justify.

Well at least there seems to be some discussion

In your 10,000 post we had a heated debate about whether or not Breitling should produce a minute repeater or in house perpetual movement. I totally disagree, we've seen how costly their Inhouse chronograph is, and in 5 years there has been zero innovation with their Inhouse movement. Can you imagine the cost of a complicated movement, and who would it cater to? They need to use their resources more effectively rather than produce high end complicated functions that caters to a very niche market.

How about we start with a 3 hand movement. How about a 12,6,9 chrono layout. How about a two dial inhouse chrono for the SOHC. How about new case materials or even grade 5 titanium? I agree that they cannot achieve the level of an upper tier brand until they do more with their Inhouse movements but lets not get crazy by developing a minute repeater or perpetual or something else that doesn't align with the brand right now.

Breitlings mission for Basel 2015 should be to create a 3 hand Inhouse movement for the Super Ocean with a freakin ceramic bezel and a ceramic bezel SOHC with InHouse two dial 30-minute chrono movement. That would get the Breitling fans aroused. Yes, it would increase the entry level price point but they can still keep the current rubber bezel Super Ocean for the people who want to get into a Breitling in the $2500 range. If Omega can sell an Inhouse 8500 Aquaterra in the $5500 range then Breitling can sell an Inhouse 3 hand movement around the same price point.....plus a few bucks extra if it has a ceramic bezel.

_________________
"I don't own any watches, I just lease them"

Maybe that is the problem.
One has to appeal to a mass and a bit better off consumer segment to achieve higher sales volumes in this price range.
What percentage of this segment aspires to be "professionals" where you have to put an honest days work to make a living instead of the Hollywood crowd where you get "money for nothing and chicks for free".

Interesting complications and innovations will certainly create more noise in the Horological world and give us here bit more to post about but I'm not sure if it will suddenly start eroding Rolex and Omega market share.

_________________
"It is just a matter of time!"

The fact that my thoughts then (a number of years ago now) stimulated such passion is one reason why I wanted to revive it for a (partially) new audience now. You'll get no arguments from me about grade 5 titanium or ceramic, but that's a different area than horological advancements. There is room for material science in movements - silicon based compounds in the escapement are becoming more common, but no indication that Breitling is contemplating that.

I agree on alternative chronographs and 3 hands - I mentioned both in my first post in this thread. I really don't care how much haute horlogerie pieces cost because I'm not the target market, they needn't impact the core. Look at any of the major brands, they have their high complication pieces that sit completely separate from the rest of their offerings. In addition, Breitling already has perpetual calendar pieces based on ETA calibres that have stratospheric prices, replacing those with in house will put prices up, but I suspect that those buyers are less price sensitive than the traditional Breitling buyer. I also don't think that an alarm movement is too far away from what Breitling offers now - a repeater would be for sure, but an alarm could be an extension of existing offerings.

Thanks Roff. I had forgotten that. Not what I meant though. A unique manual. A la Grande Lange 1 sort of thing. But thanks for the correction.

_________________
Chronomat, Steel/Gold, MOP Dial, 2-tone band (2008)
Super Avenger Black Baton Dial (2009)
Bentley B04 GMT Silver Dial (2013)
Avenger Blacksteel Baton Dial (2014)

Looks great!

_________________
SHARKMAN

First let me say thanks. Second. I think there will always be more complicated movements and better base movements. but for its gestalt and complete finish of a luxury tool watch, breitling fits the rfp.

But I would also welcome a triple barrel rattrapante

To me I think the more complicated a watch is, the more fragile and delicate it becomes. I like where Breitling fits into the scheme of things, making tough nice pieces without being too fancy or over the top. That being said, they could improve their movements they have now to at least compete with the materials and movements of other brands, such as silicon springs or what have you. But again, as long as the movement keeps great time and is dependable, then I'm a happy customer.

Tom, THAT made me laugh. Out loud. Wife wanted to know what was funny.


Ohhhhhkay. This may go a little bit "stream of consciousness" but based on the random observations below, I don't know what the heck Breitling thinks it really is at this time and I am not at all persuaded that they know.

If memory serves, they were doing just fine with a nice stable of good-looking watches when Hayek stirred the pot and said we're cutting off eta movements. I don't think any company was put in danger by that statement if it was indeed true as much as Breitling. So, they develop the B01. It turns out they still get etas for their other models. The old-timers here please correct me, but did Breitling even have a known plan for in-house in 2007 or so when Hayek made his statements, or perhaps if the word was out even before? Without something definitive I would doubt that they ever intended to do an in-house.

I believe that because Breitling was running just fine. The core fan group of pilots had their thermocompensated quartzes, the fans of the iconic Navitimer had their piece, the Chronomat had in fact evolved, EVO actually being an accurate description, and Breitling had national play from the celebs and guys with 8-inch wrists who had a watch somebody finally made for them in the Super Avenger.

So, they sink a boatload of money into the movement and then suddenly get odd ideas about how to advance the product line. When I showed up here 3 years ago it was as someone with a pent-up desire for a Navitimer on bracelet (it gets hot in Phoenix, folks) but yet unwilling to spend the bucks to get it. At the time, this place had legions of fans of the CSO, the Steelfish, and all the colorful iterations of the EVO singing their praises and getting more than one color of the same pieces. It was damn near like the Rolex fanboys--just like having 3 different types of Sub, guys had each color Steelfish or CSO, a couple different EVOs or four different Navis. Some people still have the multiple Navis. The point is, this was a pretty happy bunch. I fell into it, got a Blue Steelfish within a month. And what did Breitling do? Dumped the Steelfish and the CSO, and change, not evolve, the Chronomat. There was NO rubber that I can recall when I got here. Even the Skyracer (when's the last time someone mentioned THAT one) either still had a steel bezel or had just started towards the rubber road to oblivion.

Breitling's name was in Chronographs, has been for as long as I have heard of them. But they made nice and affordable three-handers. The Superoceans were like an anti-Sub. The Headwind looked like what the Day-date wanted to be if it took Charles Atlas bodybuilding exercises. Now, nothing exists which looks like them--okay, maybe the Galactics.

I guess my point is that Breitling had not made it post-1984 on movements but on style, construction, and some of the best metal bracelets and leather bands in the business, bar none. They were not about haute horologe, and I remain unconvinced that they ever wanted to be. Now, the price is elevated but without any technological achievements other save their one movement. And Omega has/have now blown by them on style.

Breitling has of course long had the "instruments for professionals" moniker. That's fine, but now it seems to be doubling down on that, and the technological showpieces are military grade and size superquartzes for pilots. It seems as if Breitling is/are boxing themselves in. And where are we as fans? Hell, we're just happy to have our bezel back and to have a new Colt which looks something like the old discontinued Colt back. At 44mm. That's a fine way to blow a couple of years. So, do I buy a new Chronomat of a mint JLC Tribute to Deep Sea Chrono? I know, different styles, probably better examples but its one thing that comes to mind. But I know which one I'm buying and it's not good news for the anchorB folks.

What does or should Breitling do now? Lots of suggestions above are worth while. In truth, you don't need but a couple of movements. Rolex has done just fine that way, thank you, but yes, a real three-hander in house if you must, with a power indicator. How about a GMT (the Avenger GMT is a good start) which isn't so large that you don't bang it against stuff while moving in and out of airplanes, buses cabs, you know , the things that can happen while you are traveling? Most importantly, bring the style back. You have your movement. Get the look back, use the new materials the public demands, and the public does not demand rubber, and be the instrument for lots of professionals, not just the unquestioned leader for pilots.

Out of time. May rant more later.

_________________
Scott

AP Royal Oak 15400, silver
Zenith Chronomaster El Primero Classic Cars
Vintage gold Corum
Rolex DJ 36 TT, oyster dial, oyster/smooth
Baume & Mercier Riviera 200m, silver dial/aquamarine bezel
Breitling Superocean 57, rose/stainless

For the first time on this forum, I actually fully agree with a proposition.

It is more than that though, but 'In House' is a good start. I just believe that to be at the high end you have to think differently and be different, and not just for the sake of it. Be genuinely different. Little bits along the way and grow that into a solid representation of your brand. Supporting Aviation was a good idea and the Emergency is what you might expect from some clever thinking and the balls to make it happen. But how old now is that concept? Whats next?

Maybe its all too difficult.

I admire Bremont on just about anything they do because the owners are enthusiasts, and every watch has its little story. They look comfortable where they are. I like Omega and there current use of ceramics, as its so different to any other finish. They exude confidence. Heck, I even like Hamiltons anodised aluminium cases, not that they will win over everyone. But you have got to hand it to them for nerve. Comfortable, confident, nerve..........

As much as most of the haute horlogerie you see around are sometime interesting, for me, most lose there gloss in about 5 Nano seconds after the first reveal. Its endless, trying too hard to be one up, and in most cases being in that area of 'A penumbra of bewilderment'. Too many makers in a crowded market churning out more and more elaborate devises to show what there skill levels are. Sure, lost of skill and lots of complications and complicated arrangements, and lots of imagination too. But nothing that really moves the game on IMO.

Some that showcase new technologies or have clever ways of taming the laws or physics are extremely interesting, but expensive. They do this to show what they are capable of and what there thinking is for the near term and into the future. Its great and you either buy in or you don't. But if you really want a more accurate watch, then buy a quartz. However, if you really covert the most accurate mechanical watches available, just cause its possible, then thats a different matter and for other reasons. Would you be able to take a customer base along on that journey and that the nerve to pull it off?

You just have to decide where you want to be and go for it. In house is a good point, but just one aspect.

_________________
Jim

"You have Control".

I can't say I disagree with any of the above statements, especially the theme of the 3 hand movement. It's gotta be in house and soon. I think materials like ceramic etc. will come soon (probably next year) but they also need CONSISTENCY more than anything else if they truly want to get their style back.

_________________
ROLEX Sea-Dweller (116600)
ROLEX Submariner (116610LV)
HAMILTON Stanley c. 1932 (19 jewels/grade 401 movement)