SO 2005 yachting ?

Dracha · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:16 am

just posted this on the omega forum as well

here's the original instruction manual (on the left in white) with the page in english showing , the other pages are the same just in different languages, on the right the original leaflet for AD's in yellow

woodwkr2 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:26 am

WatchFred wrote:

most welcome. while you are changing that, you might want to remove/edit that last comment; Valjoux 7731 is the Venus 188 w/ Breitling modifications, the same movement with a different name.

When Venus SA closed their doors in 1967, Valjoux continued to manufacture the Venus Cal. V188 and christened it R7730; with the Breitling SO version R7731; these btw. became the basis for the later calibers 7733, 7734 and 7736.

I suppose I was being too simplistic in my comment about the movements?

On the technical end of things, I'm am not convinced that the SO modified V188 and the 7731 are, in fact, identical. There are obvious visual differences in the balance wheel, and less obvious differences in the balance staff and hair spring. I came to discover this in my world wide search for a replacement balance complete; indeed, it turns out that the parts are not freely interchangeable as one would assume if the movements were identical in all respects.

I know that this is defying the 'common wisdom' that is generally espoused on these movements, but this common wisdom turned into a costly problem for me as I bought three balance completes for my example--all of which were supposed to be compatible (even by the parts interchange sheets that the material houses and Best Fit databases maintain). It was finally my watchmaker who was able to source a proper hairspring; he ultimately reused the original balance wheel and staff to get it back up and running.

Edit: Some searching led me to this post by chronodeco http://breitlingsource.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=37161:
"I thought I would post a few comments about this project. The Valjoux 7731 used in this watch was a modified Valjoux 7730 movement which originated as the Venus cal 188 movement (Valjoux bought out Venus and updated the 188). Now you would think that all of the parts from either the 188 (note that there are some 188 parts that will not work in the 7730 but these are obvious) and/or the 7730 would fit the 7731 no problem. But NO - THEY DO NOT. This is something that I run into all the time with older chronograph movements designed/built prior to around 1970. In fact, the machining accuracy of older Venus (cals 150, 152, 165, 175, 178) is right up there with something like a model T Ford! Swapped part frequently do not fit well - particularly the chrono bridge and pallet bridge. This is not true of older Valjoux movements like the cal. 23 and 72 and their variants. So what most likely happened was that Valjoux just used the Venus tooling to make the 7730 and 7731 movements until they came out with the 7733 which has no problems at all when it comes to swapping parts.
So my point is.... this made what should have been a fairly easy (or "fun" - noted in an earlier post) project not very easy at all and added hours to the project. That said, I was still glad to take on this project as it did turn out very nice in the end."

Wish I had known to get in touch with him while sourcing my parts. :roll:

But I think I am justified in saying that the SO V188 is not equivalent to the Valjoux 7731. It's probably best to think of these on a timeline, representing evolution from the original V188 base calibre, which was subsequently modified by Breitling for the SO. Following the Valjoux takeover of Venus, the Venus 188 was discontinued, and replaced by the later Valjoux 7730. The Valjoux 7731, then, incorporated Breitling's SO modifications that were first seen on the V188.

woodwkr2 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:30 am

Dracha wrote:

just posted this on the omega forum as well

here's the original instruction manual (on the left in white) with the page in english showing , the other pages are the same just in different languages, on the right the original leaflet for AD's in yellow

Cool! Thank you for taking the time to post it!

Dracha · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:39 am

woodwkr2 wrote:

Many of the ref. 2005 examples that I've seen have this crown on them. Though I've also seen some signed Breitling "B" crowns. My current thinking is that the signed crowns were probably later replacements installed during factory servicing. I've combed the period advertisements and literature, but have not been able to make a conclusive determination. It's unsigned and well pictured."

I have actively researched the topic of the originality of the crown. I would be most grateful if someone could post a period catalog picture or ad which shows that the 2005 crowns have the characteristic Breitling "B". In Universal Geneve, my primary focus, the earlier examples came from the factory with unsigned crowns. If they surface today with signed crowns, it is not likely that someone was up to nefarious acts, but rather that the signed crown was installed during a later servicing--perhaps during authorized work by Universal itself. I was applying similar logic to this piece.

In all honesty I think you need to revise your current thought pattern, All correct SO 2005's that I have, have seen and have handled have the signed crown . Having seen some without signed crown only points to someone not having access to original parts while servicing the watch

woodwkr2 wrote:

But I don't view replaced crowns and plexi as a big deal, chiefly because it's usually possible to track down proper replacements if it's important to the owner.

I dont see it as a big deal either , I have correct replacements for both so I can make it all original again if I get a piece missing either. It does however (again) points to work being performed by someone not having access to original parts (crowns, plexi's , bezels)

woodwkr2 wrote:

In my experience of actively looking for these bezels, and in reading other forum pleas from owners of 2005's who are looking for bezels, it's not quite as easy to find them as you seem to indicate. Perhaps that's just because the knowledgable folks around here are hoovering them all up

Quite possibly , I buy them as I see them , and I know of others that do the same

woodwkr2 wrote:

Agreed on the general point here that the case demonstrates that this watch was properly used and not babied, and that the bezel is in good condition. The bezel is not, however, in NOS condition. It's in good condition, but has seen some wear itself.

I take your word for it but I disagree , your bezel is mint/NOS . Not a flake of paint is missing around the edges
If it were used as a dive or yachting watch the bezel would have looked something like this

there's no way that you do not hit anything on a yacht with your watch, standing rigging , sails , lines, anchor chain etc (ask me how I know :-(

) or while diving . The case of your SO2005 has proper use marks , scuffs and scratches, its a stainless case but the soft aluminium bezel is flawless ?

But again, please provide documentation and/or provenance that these SO 2005's were supplied with yachting bezels and I will gladly publicly state I am incorrect in my assessment and your watch is 100% genuine as is with yachting bezel

Dracha · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:04 am

woodwkr2 wrote:

Wish I had known to get in touch with him while sourcing my parts. :roll:

Craig is our resident Hero and Wizard when it comes to Breitling service, repair and restoration :-)

woodwkr2 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:09 am

Dracha wrote:

In all honesty I think you need to revise your current thought pattern, All correct SO 2005's that I have, have seen and have handled have the signed crown . Having seen some without signed crown only points to someone not having access to original parts while servicing the watch

Happy to learn more about Breitling!--I'm the first to acknowledge that I have much to learn.

Could you weigh in on this ebay auction: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Breitling-Super-Ocean-2005-Vintage-Chronograph-Divers-watch-steel-crown-6-80mm-/351009600234?pt=UK_Jewellery_Watches_WatchAccessories_SpareParts_SM&hash=item51b9cd72ea&nma=true&si=b8QHpU77u1Z2L%252Fq1CeY%252BSO0eTak%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

The seller has an amazing stash of watch material from various brands, and is a quite legitimate and honest source for parts, IMHO. (Though he's quite hit or miss as he lists most things auction style). I've personally dealt with him in tracking down some extremely rare chrono sub seconds hands for a Landeron watch, and for a few other parts. He's not the type of seller that would call a generic part a "Breitling" part unless he had good reason and it had specifically come from a material tin labeled for the SO.

I followed this auction with interest, as it was at the same time that I was researching the crown.

WatchFred · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:18 am

as Renè has said, all Breitlings from the early 1950s onwards had signed crowns (the refs. 807, 1004 & 2610 MIGHT be exceptions).
we have seen hundreds of watches w/ confirmed provenance (some from confirmed NOS stocks) to prove this.

that seller you refer to is a bit of a hit and miss, some nice and correct and some badly refurbished/refinished, incorrect parts.

woodwkr2 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:24 am

WatchFred wrote:

as Renè has said, all Breitlings from the early 1950s onwards had signed crowns (the refs. 807, 1004 & 2610 MIGHT be exceptions).
we have seen hundreds of watches w/ confirmed provenance (some from confirmed NOS stocks) to prove this.

that seller you refer to is a bit of a hit and miss, some nice and correct and some badly refurbished/refinished, incorrect parts.

Fair enough. Y'all have resolved the crown question in my eyes. The listing will be updated to reflect this.

TomP · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:06 am

WatchFred wrote:

woodwkr2 wrote:

wasting my time?

that.

Yep.

vintage · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:31 am

I actually like the yachting bezel for the dash of color it gives. I don't think it will affect the value one iota. Do I think it's original, doubt it, but I have seen others over the years and it might have just been a common "upgrade" when going in for service when the bezels were still readily available. I would just let the market determine the value, as I'm sure it will.

Waynepjr1 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:43 am

vintage wrote:

I actually like the yachting bezel for the dash of color it gives. I don't think it will affect the value one iota. Do I think it's original, doubt it, but I have seen others over the years and it might have just been a common "upgrade" when going in for service when the bezels were still readily available. I would just let the market determine the value, as I'm sure it will.

Totally agree!!! I love the look myself. Well said Vintage!!!!

Thank you Rene and Fred for your great knowledge and welcoming spirit to Byron. I just love our Breitling group as a whole, just a bunch of friendly and inviting gentlemen educating and growing a fantastic brand. You guys ALL are the best.

Wayne

cruvon · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:27 pm

vintage wrote:

I actually like the yachting bezel for the dash of color it gives. I don't think it will affect the value one iota. Do I think it's original, doubt it, but I have seen others over the years and it might have just been a common "upgrade" when going in for service when the bezels were still readily available. I would just let the market determine the value, as I'm sure it will.

While the watch looks beautiful with that insert, it will affect value since it's not complete without the original bezel, especially since it's supposedly so difficult to source an original bezel. However if he manages to source an original bezel and throw the colored one as a bonus, he would surely attract a better price for the beauty. Either way, is a great looking watch and hope it finds a nice home.

For comparison, in the Rolex world, the 6542 GMT is one such watch whose bezel insert which was made of bakelite makesup a considerable part of the watches value, mostly because it was so fragile and also because they are so rare to find since so few have survived.

Quote:

There are some other things besides plain rarity that makes the 6542 such a standout for collectors. Perhaps the most unique thing about the 6542 in original condition is the distinctive acrylic insert for the bezel. Often called bakelite by collectors, the material was a deliberate choice on the part of Rolex. The thinking behind it was that the muted colors of the insert would avoid reflections that could distract the pilots. In practice, the inserts proved fragile and were eventually upgraded to the metal ones we all know and love in standard Submariners and later GMTs. Often replaced during servicing, very few original acrylic inserts have survived over the years, making them extremely valuable in their own right.

http://www.swiss-wrist.com/blog/the-rol ... ster-6542/

Waynepjr1 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:46 pm

I think all the points on this one have definitely been made and continuing would just be beating the dead horse as it were. Our guest has expressed to me the desire to take some time to digest the information he was given and take it all in and I for one can surely respect his wishes.

Wayne

cruvon · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:52 pm

Waynepjr1 wrote:

I think all the points on this one have definitely been made and continuing would just be beating the dead horse as it were. Our guest has expressed to me the desire to take some time to digest the information he was given and take it all in and I for one can surely respect his wishes.

Wayne

Cheers Wayne, fair enough but I was commenting on "vintages" comment about whether it affects price and to which you agreed with that wouldn't affect price, nothing against your friends beautiful watch. The time difference between that comment and mine is because Australia just woke up this side:). The Rolex example is only for the knowledge of our members here!

Waynepjr1 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:58 pm

Absolutely!!! Boy, has some great information come out on this Thread. We are blessed to have some studious members.

Cruvon, you are the man. Thanks so much for making that point.

Wayne

The Breitling Watch Source Forums

SO 2005 yachting ?

Who is online

	The Breitling Watch Source Forums Breitling Watch Information Forums, Navitimer, Chronomat