The Breitling Watch Source Forums

Hello, gentlemen. I am the seller of the piece in question over on the Omega Forum. Universal Geneve is my primary focus, and they had the best coverage there, so that's my primary online hangout. Breitling was my first 'nice' watch, a gift from my folks when I turned 18, so it will always hold a dear place in my collection.

I'm a vintage collector and watch lover like you all, and there's two things that I abhor in this sphere: someone who polishes a crisp lug, and someone who knowingly peddles franks.

So what questions can I answer, or better asked, how can I recruit your expertise to either authenticate my piece or prove that the bezel was a presto-chango job?

FWIW, I bought it in it's current state. I've added a servicing by my chrono specialist, which included a new mainspring and a long, but eventually fruitful, hunt for a replacement Venus 188 balance complete.

Guys, I would like to chime in and say our guest and seller of this watch is just a great gentleman and I have learned quite a bit reading his thoughts and insights on UG and others on the OmegaForum.

Let us welcome him warmly, as we do all our new guest and members.

Wayne

Wayne and I had been PMing earlier today on the subject of the 2005.

I did not think to search over here, and actually stumbled across this posting following a link from a lively discussion we were having (enjoying!) in all of the press about John Mayer's lawsuit against Maron (here:http://omegaforums.net/threads/some-fun-reading-on-the-lawsuit-filed-by-john-mayer-against-bob-maron.11471/#post-133569) As a side note, there are quite a few of us who would appreciate an explanation of your conclusion that the Maron example was a franken/fake btw.

Wayne okay'd me sharing some excerpts from our PM discussion of the 2005. I thought it'd be a quick and useful way to share some of my thoughts and background with the piece.

Waynepjr: "Only issue I have is with the bezel. If in fact this was a factory upgradeable item as stated, there should be more examples out in the public then the two shown here. As a Breitling collector, I can say I have never seen any but these two examples. As the Company that was back in the day no longer exists and those records are for the most part lost to history, we will never know if in fact these two were factory upgrades unless the owners have the original documentation to confirm this."

Woodwkr2:"I too am unaware of any other examples of the 2005 with the yacht bezel. I do know that Breitling offered this option for other references too, but like you I don't have an old dealer's price sheet or catalog that would represent a smoking gun, just reading from other collectors and pictures. It doesn't surprise me that there are so few yacht bezels in the wild, though. If you think back to the time period--when a diver's watch was really for a diver!--it does make sense that the overwhelming majority of buyers of this piece would have been using it as a tool watch. Add in the small number of people that own a yacht or even have access to one, and this bezel would have been an almost flippant addition to the product line, perhaps schemed up to please one very rich Breitling wearer who requested one.

When I first got the piece, I was very skeptical about the bezel. I figured that the original had likely been destroyed or lost and that someone just grabbed a colorful part that happened to fit and stuck it together. I even ordered a couple of yachting bezels off of eBay to see if they'd fit the Breitling case. They weren't expensive, likely coming off of cheap watches, so there wasn't much love lost when they didn't fit. But that's the thing, I couldn't get any to fit, and if you search the forums, there have been a few owners of 2005s searching for bezels over the years. One gentleman found a NOS bezel, but it was after much searching. The scarcity of bezels that fit is probably because this case was so big for its time. That convinced me.

It doesn't hurt to have James Dowling in your corner either "

Hi And welcome to Breitlingsource , the lions den all things Breitling

and I really appreciate you joining here , I registered at the Omega forum but have not yet received my confirmation e-mail

so here we go

1) Why is the Maron piece fake ?

-: No reference number
-: Bogus serial number
-: Gold master mark from an unknown source, never used by Breitling or known Breitling contracter
-: Breitling script on the dial incorrect
-: looks nothing like a genuine known breitling model

so thats done


the SO 2005 , btw I have no issues with the watch itself, just the bezel and the description , the watch itself is beautiful

Breitling was actually quite good at documenting the various versions with various bezels
the 1965 765 AVI , same year as your SO 2005, came with several bezel types and those were all documented in sales brochures . the 'Yachting Bezel' for the SO 2005 has not been documented either

You state none of the SO 2005's have a signed crown ? , this is pertinent untrue , ALL breitlings (with the exception of 1 model , the military 817) from the 50ies, 60ies and 70ies have signed crowns , why is this important ?, because to me it shows work was done on your watch

so , no documentation, no provenance, no other genuine known pieces and a Rolex expert in your corner

as you saw from my own and Fred's pics its quite easy to make a yachting , there are more than a few bezels around and it would even be financially beneficial you buy a yachting model (complete watch) for 3K , take the bezel off and stick the bezel on a 3K normal SO 2005 and now you have a 10K watch btw, every bezel from a big cased 765x will fit so thats not very hard to do or find either

the bezel itself, as Fred poited out as well, is anodized aluminium and very prone to fading (like mine has in the pics earlier in the thread) and damage (i'll show a pic later) if the bezel has been on this watch since the beginning , Id expect use , wear and fading after 50 years , yours is a brand new NOS bezel. No problem there either as NOS bezels can still be found
, but it does point to a later (very recent) replacement

so , provide me with provenance and documentation (other than hearsay from a rolex expert) and I will gladly announce to the world I am incorrect in my assessment

Rgds
Rene

_________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Breitling and Boats. The rest I wasted" - mostly Elmore Leonard

not that Renè needs my confirmation, but a resounding from me.

for me there is no doubt whatsoever that the bezel you show on your watch is a recent replacement, watch case and dial had quite a tough life and show that - dings and scratches on steel lugs, but no mark or fading on an aluminium bezel ? What would you say about an Ed White in that condition ?

on a side note, the catalog pages you used in your sales listing show the watermarks of a well known Frankenfaker - should you read his listings, please take all he says with a shipload of salt.

welcome to the breitlingsource, Fred

Great explanation by Rene, and as someone familiar with vintage watches I am sure that many of the concerns expressed will resonate with you - no Breitling expertise needed to see the inconsistencies between the conditions of the bezel and the rest of the watch.

Welcome to BreitlingSource.

How hard is it for the seller to source an original bezel for his watch on sale or are they never available on sale? Am I correct in understanding that the rest is all original?

not very hard , will only take a year or 4 - 5 for them to show up on the bay , or one could be offered tomorrow

you never know with these things and that is the reason why collectors are scrooges when it comes to spares (me included and I have learned the hard way !)

_________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Breitling and Boats. The rest I wasted" - mostly Elmore Leonard

Thank you for asking... I'll follow on by asking: how frequently do the yachting bezels appear for sale?

As I said when I first acquired the piece a few years ago I monitored the Bay for yachting bezels for some time and completely struck out in my attempts to find one that was compatible.

Same frequency as the SO 2005 , AVI 765 , CP 765, Unitime 1765, 765x bezels

you could search for years and never find one , on the other hand, I bought 3 different ones from the same person just 2 weeks ago. 1 Yachting for 765x (one in the pics earlier in the thread) , 1 SO2005 (NOS one in the pics earlier in the thread) and 1 765x AVI

But I really need a 1962-1965 AVI 765 Chrome bezel

but if you need a bezel , they do show up here and there on the bay globally



absolutely , and dial, hands in great condition as well (white ring not so ? , hard to tell from pics) . worn cases do not bother me much but thats a personal thing

_________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Breitling and Boats. The rest I wasted" - mostly Elmore Leonard

Well said. I do feel a bit like I've been thrown in the lions den




No, I never said that none of the SO 2005's have a signed crown. My ad on the Omega forum states, in its full and unedited glory "Crown: Unsigned crown. Many of the ref. 2005 examples that I've seen have this crown on them. Though I've also seen some signed Breitling "B" crowns. My current thinking is that the signed crowns were probably later replacements installed during factory servicing. I've combed the period advertisements and literature, but have not been able to make a conclusive determination. It's unsigned and well pictured."

I have actively researched the topic of the originality of the crown. I would be most grateful if someone could post a period catalog picture or ad which shows that the 2005 crowns have the characteristic Breitling "B". In Universal Geneve, my primary focus, the earlier examples came from the factory with unsigned crowns. If they surface today with signed crowns, it is not likely that someone was up to nefarious acts, but rather that the signed crown was installed during a later servicing--perhaps during authorized work by Universal itself. I was applying similar logic to this piece.


Well no kidding! Just look at the service marks inscribed on the inside caseback. In every brand of vintage watch that I've collected (excluding Rolex), a replaced crystal and crown is quite common, if not expected for a watch that, here, is going on 60 years! It's nice if the crown is correct. It's nice if the original plexi was signed and it's still there. But I don't view replaced crowns and plexi as a big deal, chiefly because it's usually possible to track down proper replacements if it's important to the owner.

It seems that you're implying that the fact that this watch was loved and cared for (ie, serviced) by its previous owner(s?) as circumstantial evidence to support your other conclusions. I'd be more skeptical of the supposed 'safe dweller' examples that surface.



Agreed. It's quite easy to change tachy and divers bezels with the right tools and some patience. In my experience of actively looking for these bezels, and in reading other forum pleas from owners of 2005's who are looking for bezels, it's not quite as easy to find them as you seem to indicate. Perhaps that's just because the knowledgable folks around here are hoovering them all up



Agreed on the general point here that the case demonstrates that this watch was properly used and not babied, and that the bezel is in good condition. The bezel is not, however, in NOS condition. It's in good condition, but has seen some wear itself.

Thanks for the heads up, I have other catalog pages that I posted yesterday in my back and forth with Wayne; one of which has watermarks from Breitling Source, so I owe someone around here thanks! I'll remove the one that you're referring to, in good taste.

most welcome. while you are changing that, you might want to remove/edit that last comment; Valjoux 7731 is the Venus 188 w/ Breitling modifications, the same movement with a different name.

When Venus SA closed their doors in 1967, Valjoux continued to manufacture the Venus Cal. V188 and christened it R7730; with the Breitling SO version R7731; these btw. became the basis for the later calibers 7733, 7734 and 7736.

What's the consensus around here about the current Breitling company's knowledge and usefulness for vintage collectors?

Longines, for example, has an excellent historical department who will happily research serial numbers and reference numbers in their original, hand written ledgers. Universal Geneve, on the other hand cannot be trusted and has bungled even the most basic authentication requests.

If I went directly to Breitling in an attempt to authenticate or come up with some period literature / documentation, would that likely be fruitful or would I be wasting my time?

that.