Flange

wessa · **Posted:** Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:48 pm

Hi, it has been a while since I have asked a question here.
Like Mrs wessa, I thought I knew everything, obviously not :-)

I am getting my Montbrillant 1461 Jours serviced by Breitling and one of the optional items listed on the quotation is:
"Exchange of Flange (spotted)". What is a flange on the Montbrillant 1461?
Not a lot of money (USD50) but would still like to know what I am paying for if I decide to go for it.

Cheers,

P51 · **Posted:** Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:15 am

It might have been a while since your last question, but when you do ask wessa, they are always very good ones. I did not know what a chimney on a watch was until a few months back so, search me! :oops:

Take a look at the outer slide rule scale. Is it spotted? This area has been described as a flange, though I think its more accurately called a lunette or chapter ring. In this case its a C scale of your slide rule I believe. I may be wrong however. :wink:

Roffensian · **Posted:** Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:47 am

I believe that Breitling call the outer sliderule scale the flange.

wessa · **Posted:** Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:00 am

Thanks Jim, Roff.
Hmm, never noticed any spots on my "flange" despite the fact that I have examined the dial with my loupe on many occasions.
I guess fifty bucks is as good a deal as I'm going to get on a new "flange".

:shock:

No comments please ;-)

P51 · **Posted:** Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:56 pm

Ah, can't help myself wessa. I would be very attentive if they replaced my flange when perhaps it might not be entirely necessary.

If your slide rule scales align at the moment then you will want to make sure that the replacement one do as well. It won't be the techs first priority on replacement so you need to seek an assurance. If you are like me, then you will not be able to tolerate an inaccurate flange. In fact, if it's not damaged I would not approve the swap out if you are happy with the slide rule alignment as it is. There are manufacturing tolerances and they will need to match the replacement if it is to be successful.

I would not allow my flange to be put in the hands of others without good reason ( sorry, can't help myself)

O2AFAC67 · **Posted:** Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:16 am

Hi, Wes. I suspect Breitling may have detected a "spot" on the outer slide rule scale which you may have unfortunately missed using your loupe. When you peruse pre-owned Navi's and Cossie's on Fleabay you will sometimes notice "discoloration" on the chapter scale and/or subdials. Those pieces are usually older than your watch but the discoloration process had to start sometime, perhaps not noticeably at first. The root cause for a "spot" or more of discoloration may have been a glitch during manufacturing or a glitch in the examiner's vision but for fifty bucks I would err on the side of caution and accept the new part during the service. To support that assertion, I can tell you Breitling suggested a new dial for one of my Navi's during a service about fifteen years or so back. I turned it down remembering I had examined the watch with a loupe before sending it to BUSA. Upon return, I re-examined the dial and after a much more thorough examination found two issues with the dial. One was a tiny piece of a "5" missing on the inner slide rule scale and the other was a "spot" on the dial. Probably would have found the two defects earlier if I had used an electron microscope instead of my loupe. Bottom line, if Breitling suggested a defect was noticed, I would trust a defect is there. Just my .02 worth...

Best,
Ron

P51 · **Posted:** Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:57 pm

Agreed Ron and well put.

My only concern about any AD for any brand of watch is the degree of alignment matching they take when replacing the scale or flange. Central to this is the wearers level of concern as well, of course. If the wearer does not really care about such things, then they are not likely to notice if the replacement is matched or not. So, I thought this post might be helpful to Wes and anyone else who is experiencing, or has experienced a change over and who might be a little concerned by a swap out.

I can remember the last time I had a change over under warrantee for an inaccurate non matched C scale on a slide rule watch. I bought the watch new, sight unseen (stupid me). I returned the watch to the makers Service Centre and the service agent looked at me a little bemused as to what and why I wanted a swap out! There appeared to be nothing wrong with the watch as such, and he was probably right to point that out. But after a short exchange of views luckily for me, he understood the issue and was prepared to assist. So, that was good. One said watch was duly returned 2 weeks later with a new bezel. One that was only one tick (thickness of the graduations) off accuracy instead of about 5 ticks.

My view is this; I have read posts from a few members who are not happy with the accuracy of their slide rule scales, but that its not something everyone will be concerned by. Its not life threatening after all and probably is not a concern for the majority! I have also learned from members in the case of Breitling, that depending on where you are in the world the watch may be returned to Switzerland for repair and not changed over locally. When you think that an AD probably has a 1 in 10 chance of the scales matching straight from a stock replacements parts, multiplied by the number of watches that currently use a slide rule, then you might need to hold a stock of (maybe) 100 C scales in various colours, sizes, etc. Too many permutations for most I would suggest for an event like this. So back to Switzerland it goes! If the flange in Wessa case can be successfully replaced in the City where he is, then that's good. If it comes back aligning the same as it went to them then that's good too.

If he is concerned, then he might want to take a before and after shot with the graduations aligned so he can compare the results upon return of his precious piece. Would be good to hear his news and his level of satisfaction at the change over once the service is complete.

All the Best.

wessa · **Posted:** Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:13 am

Thank you Ron, Jim, Roff,

The watch in question here is my Montbrillant 1461 Joures.
As it is a semi perpetual movement, the local service centre in Hong Kong can not service it.
As such the watch is right now at its birth place back in Switzerland at Breitling Headquarters.
Having read the warnings about the "flange" alignment I am now a bit concerned about letting them play with my existing "flange" especially given that I have not noticed anything wrong with it in the first place. It is not the 50 bucks that I'm concerned about but rather the risk of ending up with a misaligned flange, if you know what I mean.
Attached you will find the bet shot of the watch that I can find in my photobucket library of the existing and I believe original dial/flange.
Does it look aligned to you gents?

O2AFAC67 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:16 am

Hi, Wes. Well, the "synchronicity" (?) of the inner/outer markings does not appear perfectly aligned on the south/southwest side as it does on the northeast. Actually, none of my Navi's/Cossie's were perfectly "aligned" all the way around either but unfortunately I think yours might exhibit even more of that characteristic, at least from the angle of your pic. For comparison, below are some older "dial pics" of some of my pieces. I included a Breitling factory pic of a 1461 Olympus in the mix as well. In my opinion, my B-1 shown below is more accurately "synchronized" all the way around the scale than any of the Navi/Cossie breed. Perhaps you could post more of a "face on" pic of your "flange"?..

As an aside, if you do opt for the new "flange" may I suggest you notify Breitling before the part is exchanged that you are very particular about slide rule alignment and have a concern about the exchange for that very reason? Just a thought anyway...
Best,
Ron

P51 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:01 pm

Hi Wes,

My apologises for causing you concern over this issue. That was not my intention, but I can see now that it may unintentionally have given you some worry while your watch is away. I, like Ron was hoping you would get to the service agent before your watch was returned to Switzerland. If it helps, a successs story on this forum was viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46654&start=0. They got it reasonably correct and the member was pretty happy with the result. I thought so as well. :lingsrock:

The photo you have posted Wes shows the scales to be fairly well matches and may be in tolerance as far as the factory is concerned. Its not uncommon to see scales with a slight error (1 to 1.5 ticks). Given parallax error and viewing through the watch crystal, its still fairly clear to me that at the scale graduation at the root shows a small amount of error but tolerable.

That's a good term for the alignment around the scale Ron. "Synchronicity" resinates with me. Art Simon coined the term 'tick' to describe the degree of misalignment. Being the distance of error multiplied by the thickness of the graduations on the particular watch in question, and in all my time searching for the correct terminology I don't think I have read a better way of describing the characteristics of an error to the overall scale. With your permission, I would like to use that in the future.

The photos you have posted Ron are superb, which is what I would have expected from your masterly use of a camera. In fact. they would serve as a great tool for anyone with similar concerns about the synchronicity (that word again!) of their slide rule scales. There is a little error in some of the scales you have snapped, but there again I am not sure what tolerances any of the SRW makers work to, least of all Breitling. Searching as always (as there is very little about this anywhere) Art Simon and myself thought the best way to describe each scale was C for the rotating scale, and D for the fixed scale. That approximates a normal linear slide rule, where the C scale is the sliding scale. Seemed reasonable to us anyway.

I don't have a good pic of it, but the best scale synchronicity I have would be my Sinn 903 H3. Its by far the most accurate and is almost flawless, but I have heard comments by other Sinn owners finding there watch scales a little inaccurate. Right behind this in accuracy is my Navi World. Its very good. I also have a lot of respect for Japanese makers, as they usually get it right first time and there is little error in any of the Seiko/Citizen/Orient watches I have observed.

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