The Breitling Watch Source Forums

another piece that is undocumented in catalogs, Bill has raised some doubts whether these were "put together" after the demise of the original Breitling.

Asking prices on ebay and chrono24 are typically (and unrealistically) sky high, but they do pop up from time to time; even auctions went far above what I was comfortable paying. Then I picked up a NOS bezel for a 7650 Co-Pilot AVI, it fit, but not perfectly - some months later, during my vacation, a ref. 7656 without bezel was put on auction; now I know which watch my bezel was designed for

Case is almost identical to the ref. 1765 Unitime and the ref. 7650 Co-Pilot; same dimensions and finishing, miniscule differences in the bezel mount; dial is quite similar to the Gen. 2 ref. 810, but with much bigger subdials, dial is clearly Breitling original; the hands are exactly the same as on the 24h Top Time ref. 824 (810-24 are different); movement is a Valjoux R7736, markings correspond to the movements I know out of the 815s & 145x.

So after seeing all components "in the metal", no doubt at all for me that these were produced by Breitling in 1975 (all I've seen date to this year) as no more Venus 178s were apparently available to keep the Co-Pilot AVI alive.

Bill, happy as always to hear your doubts, dissent & comments - all others too, of course

Now the watch diet seriously begins (after the next shipment from Craig arrives).

Man on man, another winner. Spectacular Fred!

Just off the top time of my head, my reservations are as follows.

1. Examples of this style I have observed (sorry, I haven't kept an image gallery) have case reference numbers spanning 765, 7650, 7651, and 7656. None of those case numbers were associated with the Top Time line.
2. Case serial numbers on this style span the late 1960s to the late 1970s. [The one I bought around 1998 was a 7650 from 1968.]
3. I don't believe any Top Time was made with a rotating bezel. I think the Top Time line was dropped from catalogs and inventory around 1970, but that's a point we can't verify with precision.
4. It seems anachronistic to have three-minute marks on the minute register after 1963 or so, although I don't recall looking for that feature on other versions of this watch.
5. I could be wrong, but I lean to someone making up a batch of these in the early or mid-1990s.

Just too many if's about this one Fred sorry to say. I think you just might as well mail it to me and I will dispose of it properly.

I understand the reservations, but the one thing that I can't get my head around is that in the 90s someone had the ability to mass (relatively) produce a number of pieces at this level of quality. Here we are 20 years later and one off fakes of this quality are extremely rare.

I can't say that it's 100% original, I can't say that it isn't, but it is a very nice piece.

Looks very nice Fred!

More common than your think. When I did a simple web image search for "breitling top time," counted five examples (but not controlling for duplicates and non-Top Times). Lindersdorff has one every few months. Gisbert Joseph usually has one, too. They are not an uncommon occurrence. Our favorite miscreant might have two posted right now (though I refuse to look).

have you ever held one in your hand, Bill ?
when you do, you will have no doubt.

as I said, all the components are as clearly mass produced Breitling quality as anything I have seen.

I will post some comparison pics next week that should clarify this.
asked for dissent .....

Very beautiful watch no matter what it's HISTORY is .!!!!!!

_________________
"A man with one watch knows what time it is; a man with two watches is never quite sure."

See item number 2 above.

Incidentally (tangentially, really), I have the same suspicions about ref 2130, dozens of which suddenly appeared at watch fairs around 1998. I've always looked at mine and wondered who really put those parts together. The movement is marked "Hamilton 11."

HI Fred, Bill
as you know I have been going back and forth on the originality of these pieces leaning towards 'genuine'
now that Fred has one to 'play' with and stamped it 'genuine' I will go with his judgement

Fred, I thought you found a reference in some source about these as well ?

_________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Breitling and Boats. The rest I wasted" - mostly Elmore Leonard

Hi all,
Just my feeling about this - very nice- 7656 encasing a V7736 : it would be a " 765-36" if using the Navi's registration sequence , naming "806-36" a 806 encasing a Valjoux 7736 .
The shape of the horns is really typical from the Navi - AVI - CoPilot range .
In the put together game, you can replace a Venus 178 by a V7736, dimensions are compatible ... except for dial feet location . Considering that sourcing a AVI or CoPilot dial with V7736 feet location would be impossible, a good alternative would be to use a TopTime or 815 dial .
So my hypothesis would be that it is a AVI or CoPilot with a TopTime dial .

Renè, I did find a reference and we emailed about it more than a year ago, but neither remember nor find the mail; old age .....

Phil, "found" a Top Time dial in a different, new "big subdial" design ?

using clearly mass produced "Co-Pilot type" cases, including the bezels ?
mass produced highest quality dials (Singer, Linder, Etalem quality) ?
mass produced hands that happen to be the exact same hands used on the Top Time 824 ?

so your theory is that somebody - in the mid 1990s, as Bill's theory goes - had some V7736 lying around (easy) and decided to set up a production run with the same manufacturers that had worked for Breitling in the 1970s, EXACTLY getting all dimensions right, including bezels, getting the case finishing and exceptional dial quality right - and then decided to print "Top Time" on the dials ????? Cui bono, why add the "Top Time", why not just copy the Co-Pilot AVI 7650 dial ? Dial does show quite a lot of similarities w/ the 1960s LIP ref, 765 btw.

Would still like to know who had the knowledge, the industry connections and the capital to manufacture that 7656 production run of a few dozen pieces max; would have loved them to take over Breitling, they showed quite good taste and respect for the brand heritage - on the wrist this is one of the nicest Breitlings of all, quite perfectly balanced.

Remember that the Co-Pilot AVI line is so cherished by collectors, because they are rare, never coming close to the production quantities of the Navitimers - and here you have a Breitling management in the early/mid 1970s that looks for the next "big thing" that might save them, remembering the success they had with the Top Time line (the 815 never really took off), so they decided to "marry" the lines and revive the Top Time branding on a new "Co-Pilot" model. sounds like a potentially sound strategy. Too late to save them, too late to really "launch" them or publish catalogs or advertising, no funds and no time left before Willy closed the company down.

here are some quick pics.

'75 ref. 7656



'73 Datora 2034


'71 Top Time 824


'69 Co-Pilot AVI 7650


just for comparison, here a the 1960s "black panda" ref. 810 Top Time dials, quite different


side view ref. 7656


and the 7650

found it , in 'The Book' , page 204

_________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Breitling and Boats. The rest I wasted" - mostly Elmore Leonard

Hi Fred, your 7656 is 100 % genuine and original, no doubts, gratulation.