The Breitling Watch Source Forums

- $1000 - is that what you consider a small deposit?

The dealer took the deposit for a reason - proof of commitment by both parties.

I reckon you will struggle to get it 'all' back - Good Luck.

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From now on, I’m watching everything you do with a fine-tuned comb.

In prior xactions, be they watches, cars, etc., I always had to leave a small
deposit, usually some viable % of overall worth. I made sure the vendors
stipulated with documentation the deposit was REFUNDABLE. I also used a
credit card to further minimize problems like dealer brain seizures, etc. If
you left a cash deposit, it's still returnable since no actual deal was con-
summated, & even if you only had a verbal refund agreement, it's still binding.
Only a schmuck would refuse to comply, & that merchant will suffer reciprocity
now & later. Good fortunes to you.

having trouble with the bastid on getting my $1k back

Unfortunately I'm not surprised. You went to a store that does not sell Breitling and asked him to get you a new Breitling so you knew he wasn't a Breitling Authorized Dealer. He went and got one for you so he's out the money already and doubtful he can just send it back and get his money back. Did you ask about the warranty, or was it ever even discussed? If not then he delivered exactly what you asked. You say yourself that you've purchases from the Grey Market before so you knew what you were getting into.

I wouldn't give back the money if I were him because now he's stuck with a SA that he has to sell and if you look at used SA's (which is what he's competing against and may be even worse off if his has no warranty but some of the used does) in the Buy and Sell area they're listed at $3,500 and under and not selling.

I'm not trying to be harsh just trying to show you his standpoint and he's probably just as pissed at you. Either just buy the watch or try and negotiate some of the deposit back.

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Current:
Chronospace Silver, Black Ocean Racer
Navi World Silver, Aero Classic
Chronomatic 1461 Bronze, Bronze DP-1
SA White, Diamonds, Pro 2 Diamonds
SA Black, Bentley Rubber
Navi 1461 LE, Black DP-1
Chronomat GMT Silver, Pilot

Hi I have bought several Breitling's here in the UK. One was a Bi Metal Chronomat which was a hand down heirloom actually in a shocking state! Riders were missing and it looked like it had done fifty years hard labour! anyway, I got it at a very good price, complete with its box, BUT NO PAPERWORK. I took it to the authorised Breitling Dealer and service centre and they accepted it WITHOUT PAPERS and indeed were glad of my business. I did however have to explain how I purchased the watch but did not have to say how much or produce a receipt. It may be the fact they service my family's watches? It was completely overhauled and came back looking like new! I could not beleive the difference! I then got service paperwork which named and numbered the watch from both Breitling and the Service centre. Some months later I sold the watch on and the new purchaser was delighted. Obviously the sale price was less than an equivalent watch with full documentation, but not that much lower!! The watch now has "Breitling History" again and so will present no problem for the new owner in the future.
I would have no problem purchasing said watch, PROVIDED the purchase price was "keen" enough. Yes I fully agree the warranty is an issue, BUT you will be able to get it serviced. It would be extreemly unlucky for a new watch to need opening in the next two years, I imagine, perhaps I will be corrected? Provided you have a bill of sale to prove proper ownership, if the purchase cost is alot less than a new authorised watch, I can see no real problem, as long as you are aware and accept the warranty issue.
Of course the other IMPORTANT point is THE RESALE VALUE! If or when you decide to sell the watch on, or trade it in, you WILL get less money and all for the reasons stated above... BEAR THIS IN MIND as again if you are changing watches regularly it WILL be an issue down the line.... Hope I have given good advice as this is just my opinion... I do not mean to preach! Good luck, I have hopefully given food for thought?.....Regards Dave
A quick add on about the comments above in the last post.... I must say I have to agree that a deposit is a deposit. Contactually provided he supplies what you asked for then he has completed his part! If he told you that the watch would have a full warranty, then you have recourse as he has missrepresented the sale, so you must think carefully about exactly what was promised? In the future it would be good practise to always have a receipt provided with written agreement of exactly what you are getting and of course any missgivings you have at the point of sale should be raised then and the issue can be resolved and put on the receipt, in writing, so no confusion ensues, post deposit or purchase.
I can confirm, I too have been "caught up" in the moment and ignored things and later thought.... when you think about laying out four odd grand. if it were a vehicle we would check numbers etc... but a watch?? We are all human and hopefully this will assist in nobody else being "rash" and possibly later regretting it?....

What reason(s) is he giving you for not returning it?

If you completed the sale - with I think you should BTW - and decided to resell the watch, do you think you would be $1k out of pocket?

You have three options:

Try to renegotiate the balance due and complete the sale. Flip it if you are that concerned and cut your losses.

Negotiate a reduced return of deposit, say $600 refund as a $1k hit is an unreasonable % of total sale to lose when there is some unwritten dubiety.

Ask him to replace the watch with another giving you what you thought you should have got and pay an additional reasonable amount agreeable to both parties to call it quits and get this one off the table.

Deposits are only fully refundable when neither party suffers any loss. It should be noted though that the dealer is the expert and should have tied up all loose ends before obtaining the watch for you. In a small claims in the UK you would likely win because of this. It would also be argued however that you are not a first time grey market buyer and should have experience of the potential pitfalls. 60/40 refund in your favour is my feeling.

Caveat Emptor my friend.

_________________
From now on, I’m watching everything you do with a fine-tuned comb.

Just had to say - loving your signature - Per favore, non mi rompere i coglioni.

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From now on, I’m watching everything you do with a fine-tuned comb.

Dont budge on your deposit. You have no obligation to complete the sale unless you signed something that detailed the fact that the dealer would be tearing up your factory warranty. Verbal agreements dont mean much these days since its your word against his. I can assure you that a court would not look to highly on a business that threw away your warranty before collecting payment from you. It might be a pain in the ass, but if push came to shove, id bet 10 to 1 that you would win a small claims case unless it was explicitly stated in writing. Even then, you might still have a leg to stand on since the whole gray market concept is pretty cloudy to begin with.

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-RJ

Only an AD can provide a warranty and the purchaser knows that this store is not an AD. Dealer provided a brand new SA. Unless the dealer claimed there would be a Breitling warranty, then where is the dealer wrong here?

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Current:
Chronospace Silver, Black Ocean Racer
Navi World Silver, Aero Classic
Chronomatic 1461 Bronze, Bronze DP-1
SA White, Diamonds, Pro 2 Diamonds
SA Black, Bentley Rubber
Navi 1461 LE, Black DP-1
Chronomat GMT Silver, Pilot

Thats not correct. If there is no contract, a court would have to determine if the average person should be aware of these things. I can assure you that gray market watch buying isnt common knowledge to the average person. Therefore, it is unreasonable to expect a buyer to be entering into a deal like this with the knowledge that they would not be receiving a factory warranty. Perhaps the jeweler can prove that the buyer is a professional watch buyer and should be held to a higher standard, but thats not going to happen.

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-RJ

It's just like RJ said. If a court determines that the average, reasonable person would assume a new watch comes with a factory warranty (in other words, the average, reasonable person is ignorant of the finer points of the grey market), then it is incumbent upon the seller to specify that the watch doesn't come with a warranty, and do so in advance of taking any money for the sale. All relevant terms of the sale must be specified in advance, or the sale is unenforceable. The fact that the OP may have previous dealings with the grey market doesn't matter, unless the seller can prove the OP knew in advance of the sale that the watch didn't come with a warranty. (Based on the OP's posts in this thread, it looks to me like he actually didn't know that.)

Beyond that, there is also the fact that the dealer still has the watch, which is still new, and still perfectly sellable. Even if the sale is enforceable, the dealer is not entitled to keep a deposit totaling almost 25% of the total value of the watch simply because the OP decided not to go through with the purchase. The dealer would have to show that the amount of the deposit is commensurate with the damages he suffered as a result of the OP's breach. I don't see that happening.

When you put some money down to secure an item it means that you are entering into a LEGALLY BINDING CONTRACT with the seller and it is a sign of good faith that you have agreed to make a purchase. Terms are discussed at that time before money is exchanged, possibly including warranty conditions for example. If you change your mind for whatever reason a trader DOES NOT HAVE TO GIVE YOU YOUR DEPOSIT BACK. IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW GOOD YOUR REASONS ARE - loss of job or bereavement for example.

You could even be sued by the seller for more money up to the FULL PRICE of the goods or services ordered.

If a trader agrees at the time an order is placed that a deposit is refundable, YOU STILL NEED TO GET IT IN WRITING.

If you do not have in writing that the deposit is refundable, which could be as straight forward as written on the back of the receipt, you are legally obliged to complete the sale.

The other side of the coin is a trader cannot wriggle out of his responsibilities if he sells you goods which are not as described.

The nub is, "has the trader mis-described the goods" - New v's Used, Warranty v's No Warranty - It is absolutely your ONLY angle.

I reckon the OP new there were potential warranty issues but was blinded by his enthusiasm for the deal he was being offered at point of sale.

'Negotiate' a reasonable amount of $$ to break the deal or take them to small claims claiming 'not as described'.

_________________
From now on, I’m watching everything you do with a fine-tuned comb.

For starters, im guessing that you are reciting European law?

Verbal contracts are difficult to enforce. Why? It turns into a he said, she said situation. OP entered into a verbal contract expecting to have an in-tact warranty booklet. Dealer entered into a contract expecting to flush OP's contract down the toilet. There was no "meeting of the minds" (thats an actual legal term, and it must be present in order for a contract to be formed). No meeting of the minds = no contract. This is why a contract should always be in writing.

Anyway, thats the way the law works on this side of the pond.

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-RJ

You've pretty much put it in a nutshell. The watch was not delivered as described, insofar as it came with altered paperwork and no warranty, which was not specified as a term of the sale. I think the OP is within his rights to ask for his deposit back. If it isn't worth his time to sue, he might consider negotiating a partial refund - but, imo, he should only do so out of convenience, not because he is legally obligated to cough up his deposit. I'm with RJ on this one.

Beyond that, I'd still like to know why you think the seller should get to keep a $1000 deposit on a $4200 watch, and still keep the watch. What damages theory under contract law justifies that kind of recovery?