Bridge engravings on pre-1950ies

cruvon · **Posted:** Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:45 am

WatchFred wrote:

the projectiles are balance wheel screws, you do not see them on the gold one as this pic shows a running movement and they are blurred by the motion, balance wheel on this is levitating as it has no spokes either ?

most contemporary watches do not have these screws that were necessary for temp regulations if I understand that correctly, as modern alloys do not require this, but vintage watches all have them, hope Roff will chime in as I know very little on this subject, but there are still no levitating balance wheels (well maybe there is one in the Haldimann H9).

Thanks, true, could be it is a running movement so are not visible. What about the gold ring in one and the reddish oxidised ring in the other?

WatchFred · **Posted:** Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:55 am

no Cruvon, not "could be", believe me, all these watches have balance wheels WITH regulating screws, afaik glucydur balances where invented much later, though I have no exact date.

as to the oxidation vs. no oxidation I have rather little to say, though the "perfectly new" look of that engraved piece just adds to my feeling of uneasiness about this one, the oxidised one is in line w/ hundreds of others I have seen, 65 years just leave some marks ...

Edit: ok, totally off topic now, but trying to learn. Glucydur/Novarox were invented in the mid 30s, but I find no indication which/when movements used these alloys and had balance wheels without adjustment screws.

cruvon · **Posted:** Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:57 am

Thanks Fred.

Dracha · **Posted:** Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:24 am

Dracha wrote:

@ Cruvon
Ive seen the difference in little pushers as well, still trying to figure it out if it has anything to do with the movement or not

before this gets lost in the horologerie teachings

might be on to something here that would require more attention

Dracha · **Posted:** Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:18 am

interesting
see the previous '55' that has been almost polished off ?
also the back seems to be rebrushed

case, dial , hands etc seem still authentic so it may just be a restoration attempt ?

cruvon · **Posted:** Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:26 am

Wow, very well spotted Rene:)

Roffensian · **Posted:** Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:41 am

That was a tough slog for a brief overnight absence :shock:

Not much to add, and we are way off topic from what Fred was trying to achieve here, but......

balance screws are used to adjust rate and watchmakers have tables that tell them which ones to adjust and to what extent and direction for different adjustments. Screws were also often undercut to reduce the perimeter wieght on the balance.

Modern solid balance wheels generally don't need them with all adjustments being done to the balance spring through the regulator.

Dracha · **Posted:** Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:47 am

Roffensian wrote:

That was a tough slog for a brief overnight absence :shock:

Good morning, make an espresso , sit back and read

cruvon · **Posted:** Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:04 pm

Lol, we are not even half done Roff, we are just getting started;). Thanks for the balance screw explanation. While you guys have your espressos, I have another engravings question. With these v72c movements, was it possible to only change the bridge say during a service or is the bridge physically inseparable from the movement? In other words, could it have been possible that the bridge could have been changed for mechanical reasons and the movement was still the original one or is that scenario unlikely and the bridge wouldn't fit another movement?

I was looking at the breakup of movement pics here viewtopic.php?f=11&t=36832&start=45 and though for a Venus 191, they all seem to be separable parts that could have been replaced/updated say during a service?

What am getting at is, how difficult would it then be for someone who wanted to restore the watch to be period correct because of wrong bridge engravings etc. or a later bridge on the movement to find a bridge that was period correct i.e with no engravings etc. to restore the movement to it's original state?

Also an insight into the murky world of movements here

Quote:

Michael M: And if someone want to produce a perfect fake LeCoultre Valjoux 72C Dato-compax, it would be very easy to buy a cheep genuine Valjoux 72 LeCoultre watch and change the bridge and maybe the case. Then its perfect and nobody will see a difference. Why he must engrave a new so perfect and old looking one line signature ?

Quote:

Michael M: Back to the first Valjoux 72C

I bought it in USA for 2000,- $.

But where would be the sense to fake something like that?

First you have to find a waterproof Oyster case with no markings, not simple, then a dial, then a movement Valjoux 72C with a bridge with no markings. All this together would have been cost at least 3000. - $. Then you just have to make false marks to the end the complet watch for 2000,- $ to sale ?

and quote by a moderator on that link, any idea from which year on this was a requirement for US watches?

Quote:

ZAF: If it was a USA market watch, the movement would indicate by law the jewel count and wether it is adjusted or not. Back then, for the legal importation of Swiss movements this was a requirement.
Therefore, the single line LeCoultre signature with no indication of jewel count and adjustments, can not be found in a USA watch.
So, if it is not a USA watch, then what is it?

http://www.classicwatch.com/discus/mess ... 1292337999

Dracha · **Posted:** Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:15 pm

the bridge is easily replaced , thats why you need to look at the watch in its entirety, patina, case, screw damage etc etc

what I find funny is that remark from Zaf when michael herbert shows his piece to Zaf and his reply immediate "It's fake"

that makes my day and shows he's not just trying with Breitling and being shot down immediately , he's also trying with LeCoultre !!

here's the link Fred posted earlier on the USA import requirements

"it is from the NAWCC board, Rene. here it is, though it is mostly educated guesses ?
http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?7360 ... -from-when "

WatchFred · **Posted:** Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:27 pm

WatchFred wrote:

Dracha wrote:

Fred,
a few weeks ago you mentioned a link where US importers themselves added the import code and/or the Mfg name and a date when that started to happen ?
I have lost the link but it may explain why we see so many different bridge engravings on these '45-'50 (date guessing) pieces as they were done not at the Mfg plant but later on in the import process to satisfy US customs ?

do you still have that link ?

it is from the NAWCC board, Rene. here it is, though it is mostly educated guesses ?
http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?7360 ... -from-when

something amiss here, your link goes to a rannft movement, here´s the discussion link, Rene & Cruvon

Dracha · **Posted:** Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:36 pm

edited, thanks Fred

Dracha · **Posted:** Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:38 am

Dracha wrote:

@ Cruvon
Ive seen the difference in little pushers as well, still trying to figure it out if it has anything to do with the movement or not

before this gets lost in the horologerie teachings
might be on to something here that would require more attention

I just received my 784 back from Craig , it has a 23c movement and the pushers are protruding quite a bit as well , they can be operated with your fingernail

Roffensian · **Posted:** Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:32 am

cruvon wrote:

Lol, we are not even half done Roff, we are just getting started;).

I'll contact admin and get my PM capacity increased.............

WatchFred · **Posted:** Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:47 am

me too, please ?

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Bridge engravings on pre-1950ies

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