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 Post subject: 1955 (?) AOPA ad. review
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:31 am 
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I think everyone at one time or another has seen this ad ?
And I read on the board that in approx. 2010 someone asked what type of Navitimer was on it
Maybe that question has already been answered but it got me thinking and playing with photoshop

this is what I found :

1) the pushers are a-symmetrical (different distance from the crown)
2) you can barely see the AOPA logo but to me it definitely looks like the V72 specific AOPA logo with sharp pointed wings

So can we conclude that in this ad it pictures a V72 AOPA Navitimer ?

I believe so

I dont know what it adds to the info we already have , but a hypothesis might be

"completely designed and engineered to AOPA specs" , the typical Navitimer sliderule layout (different from the Chronomat sliderule layout) + V72 Movements was a AOPA requirement ?

is there a Breitling that used this particular sliderule layout before the Navitimer was designed ?

Later Breitling built on the success of the design but came up with a slightly cheaper Navitimer , gave it reference number 806 and made it with a venus 178 movement ?

food for thought


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Last edited by Dracha on Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:21 am 
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I'll accept that it's a 72. Dating this ad / brochure has always been problematic for me because the front of it references that more than 1,000 AOPA members had already purchased it. Advertising guff perhaps, but if we go down that path then you have to question other statements (designed and engineered to AOPA specs).

May be nothing more than a later brochure with stock photos???


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:12 am 
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yes, those '1000's '

has Valjoux ever been contacted , explained to them that we're trying to figure out how many navitimers were build with the V72 movement , and asked them how many they actually delivered to Breitling in 52, 53, 54 and 55 ? , this should not (no longer) be confidential info as the Breitling company they delivered to doesnt exist anymore and the info is now 60 years old ?

that should give an exact number of Navi's build with the V72 and also how many were build in which year (with the V72)

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:59 am 
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Dracha wrote:
yes, those '1000's '

has Valjoux ever been contacted , explained to them that we're trying to figure out how many navitimers were build with the V72 movement , and asked them how many they actually delivered to Breitling in 52, 53, 54 and 55 ? , this should not (no longer) be confidential info as the Breitling company they delivered to doesnt exist anymore and the info is now 60 years old ?

that should give an exact number of Navi's build with the V72 and also how many were build in which year (with the V72)



That's a good idea, although of course Valjoux as an entity doesn't exist either anymore.

Not sure which group at ETA / Swatch would be best to start with???


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:21 pm 
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Ive sent an e-mail to ETA.ch asking for historical data / information about the V72 and the number of movements they sold to Breitling in the years between 1952 - 1955 , "split out by year please"

who knows they may actually read my e-mail and respond :D

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:43 pm 
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Dracha wrote:
Ive sent an e-mail to ETA.ch asking for historical data / information about the V72 and the number of movements they sold to Breitling in the years between 1952 - 1955 , "split out by year please"

who knows they may actually read my e-mail and respond :D



Great idea but am assuming that won't be accurate because Breitling might have ordered extra movements comared to the watches produced for servicing/replacement purposes? Will help in knowing the max number possible though.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:54 pm 
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cruvon wrote:
Dracha wrote:
Ive sent an e-mail to ETA.ch asking for historical data / information about the V72 and the number of movements they sold to Breitling in the years between 1952 - 1955 , "split out by year please"

who knows they may actually read my e-mail and respond :D



Great idea but am assuming that won't be accurate because Breitling might have ordered extra movements comared to the watches produced for servicing/replacement purposes? Will help in knowing the max number possible though.



Not necessarily. Think about a car - your mechanic doesn't order extra engines so that they have service parts, they order the specific parts that they need. Servicing will require a lot more mainsprings and balance completes than they will main plates.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:01 pm 
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Roffensian wrote:
cruvon wrote:
Dracha wrote:
Ive sent an e-mail to ETA.ch asking for historical data / information about the V72 and the number of movements they sold to Breitling in the years between 1952 - 1955 , "split out by year please"

who knows they may actually read my e-mail and respond :D



Great idea but am assuming that won't be accurate because Breitling might have ordered extra movements comared to the watches produced for servicing/replacement purposes? Will help in knowing the max number possible though.



Not necessarily. Think about a car - your mechanic doesn't order extra engines so that they have service parts, they order the specific parts that they need. Servicing will require a lot more mainsprings and balance completes than they will main plates.


Thanks Roff, your explanation looks the correct one, I incorrectly thought they would just order spare movements rather than parts to cater to any eventuality:)


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:42 pm 
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cruvon wrote:
......order spare movements rather than parts to cater to any eventuality:)


You can cope with any eventuality without movements - you just buy spare parts for every part - still classified separately to a movement.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:55 pm 
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Roffensian wrote:
cruvon wrote:
......order spare movements rather than parts to cater to any eventuality:)


You can cope with any eventuality without movements - you just buy spare parts for every part - still classified separately to a movement.


Remember that V 72 was not a " reserved caliber ". Nowadays watch factories often prefer to change the complete caliber rather than reparing - ie a 7750 , due to low price of complete caliber produced automatically and high labor cost . In the 50s it was the contrary and they were extended catalogs for watchparts , allowing any watchmaker to order any part .
In the same way many watch companies were buying subassemblies and parts to be able to customize their calibers .


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:06 am 
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still a great idea to contact Swatch, if you get somebody to take this request seriously there is a lot to learn from those historical records, including production numbers of another former "big player" in ebauches manufacturing, Venus, that also was merged into ETA.

As Breitling was the primary customer for the 175/178 we could - theoretically - shed some light on chronograph production numbers ? Do not hold my breath that somebody at Swatch is taking the corporate history seriously enough to analyse production records from the 40s to the 70s, but we might just get lucky ?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:40 am 
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Dracha wrote:
I think everyone at one time or another has seen this ad ?
And I read on the board that in approx. 2010 someone asked what type of Navitimer was on it
Maybe that question has already been answered but it got me thinking and playing with photoshop

this is what I found :

1) the pushers are a-symmetrical (different distance from the crown)
2) you can barely see the AOPA logo but to me it definitely looks like the V72 specific AOPA logo with sharp pointed wings

So can we conclude that in this ad it pictures a V72 AOPA Navitimer ?

I believe so

I dont know what it add's to the info we already have , but a hypothesis might be

"completely designed and engineered to AOPA specs" , the typical Navitimer sliderule layout (different from the Chronomat sliderule layout) + V72 Movements was a AOPA requirement ?

is there a Breitling that used this particular sliderule layout before the Navitimer was designed ?

Later Breitling built on the success of the design but came up with a slightly cheaper Navitimer , gave it reference number 806 and made it with a venus 178 movement ?

food for thought


Here's one I have, on the original ad the AOPA logo is just visible, but far from clear, it clearly indicates that the hands are silver matte plated though.

And the top pusher is clearly closer to the crown then the bottom one, even though the angle could cheat us.

/ Kurt B


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:39 am 
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Kurt ,
do you have an approx. or maybe even exact date for this leaflet ?
you're correct that it shows the a-symmetric pushers which points to the V72 movement

I have done some further searching but can't find earlier Breitling watches with the pilot E6B sliderule layout , which further strengthens my belief that the AOPA specs to which these watches were made, included the spec for the E6B sliderule.

This hypothesis again adds to the argument that the 1st release were indeed the V72 pieces with a AOPA signed wing.
The 1953/1960 watches do not have AOPA on the dial but the 'blind' AOPA wing so therefor they are not earlier than the V72 pieces ('53) but later ('60) because if these were the watches commissioned by the AOPA surely they would have had AOPA on the dial ?

I was also thinking about browsing through old AOPA magazines, but that wont do us any good :(

"In 1958, AOPA Pilot magazine made its debut as a stand-alone magazine, severing the long-time connection with Ziff-Davis Publishing."

http://www.aopa.org/info/history.html

here's the 1st issue
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/aopa/pilot0358/

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:38 pm 
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And here's when a scanner would come in handy. These are photo images of the Georges Caspari article on Navitimers in the June 1957 Journal Suisse d'Horlogerie. He doesn't mention the origins of the Navitimer (at least at my level of French comprehension). He does show the V72 version as an example and the Breitling ad in the same issue has it as well. You just can't beat good art.

ImageImage
ImageImage


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:00 pm 
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thanks bill !
the french article is a translation from an original article from the "us news & world report" april 12th 1957 issue

http://www.ebay.com/itm/APRIL-MAY-JUNE- ... 0678454685

too bad this seller won't ship to europe :(

if someone from the US is willing to buy the above I'll refund the purchase

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