The Breitling Watch Source Forums

I know this is the wrong crowd to ask, since we all have a passion or at least an interest in Vintage watches, but why is there so little interest in (Breitling?) Vintage and so many buy new ?

I can imagine the instant gratification and satisfaction of walking into a store and pick up a new watch but in my book that doesnt compare with (re)searching vintage pieces , trying to decide what you like and then trying to find 'the' piece you have choosen , discarding many for whatever reason and then the thrill discovering one you've wanted , or the disappointment of having to wait many eon's for one to show up only to find someone else wanted it more than you do !

Price shouldnt be a consideration as many new pieces cost double or more than a vintage piece of the same line and with the vintage pieces you know you get something 'special' , something thats been around for 40 - 50 - 60 or more years , a piece of history and if treated normal will continue to work until its passed down as an heirloom or you could (if you're very lucky) sit on it and regard it as an investment.

(Crystal ball:) And do we need to expect an increased interest from the new economies like china , india , brazil etc as these are becomming wealthier and buying more luxury goods ? , I know for instance that French Wine, New watches are sold to those new economies like crazy and are driving up prices tremenously , do we need to expect that for us collectors as well ?

So why are there not (a lot) more people collecting vintage (breitling) watches ?

or is this really the wrong part of the forum to ask and I should repost in the 'general Breitling' section ?

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"I spent most of my money on Booze, Breitling and Boats. The rest I wasted" - mostly Elmore Leonard

At the risk of stereotyping.........

Spend a bit of time in the other sections of the forum and you will get a sense of a younger demographic that didn't know that Breitling existed 10 - 15 years ago so don't care as much about the history. Image and looks are an important factor as are many of the modern features - water resistance being an obvious one. They also want the lack of worry that is perceived to come with a modern piece.

It's not just Breitling, it's likely not even just watches. Just be grateful that there are fewer people on the demand side of the equation

So basicaly you're saying we're a bunch of old farts (@ 46 yo) living in the past !



Yup.. now we only have each other to deal with ! but at least we know where the pieces end up !!

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"I spent most of my money on Booze, Breitling and Boats. The rest I wasted" - mostly Elmore Leonard

I'm not part of the younger generation but I'll freely admit my knowledge of Breitlings history was minimal before 2007. I was aware of and admired the brand before that, but it wasn't until I joined up here that I began to learn about the company that was, vs the company now...and thus the historical models and whats inside them. Personally, I'd love to own several specific vintage watches including several Breitlings, and hope to one day. For now though, my collection is modern and therefore not as representative of the brand as perhaps it could have been....theres too many beautiful watches, not enough funds.

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"Per Ardua Ad Lingi"

Later models have feature combinations more to my liking, and I prefer better (newer) condition.

I don't really have much interest in the "hunt", such as you describe.

I think it's more to do with the amount of hard research available on Breitling vintages. What attracts new collectors is that they can pick up a new or vintage watch and it should have been well documented attributes/lineage amongst collectors like for example with Pateks or Rolexes and it's upto forums like ours and knowledgeable collectors amongst us to make that happen. Unfortunately, except for some Navitimer models which are fairly documented, this is still a evolving process with vintage Breitlings compared to the competion, but guess we will get there:). It's also to do with the success of the current Breitling and how well received it is with the younger generation as a luxury brand of choice against it's competitors since that will attract the future generation of collectors to vintage Breitlings. Then there is the question of resale values. Watch lovers and collectors buy Rolexes and Pateks because they also think they are investments that will not loose value over time, be they new or used and collectors will look for the same with Breitlings too. So guess Breitling of today has to exercise closer price controls and make sure they don't get sold for half price when sold used, so that the new generation of collectors look at vintage Breitlings as something worth investing in. As we know, most mechanical luxury watches are not bought much for their utility value, there are plenty of more accurate timing devices like quartz/digital watches, computers and mobile phones for that. They are usually bought based on their mechanical movement finesse, their perception as a luxury brand to be enjoyed today and also as a investment that might be sold in retirement or to be handed down to the next generation, so they need to have a well documented lineage and solid value retention. Hopefully with the work put in by forums like these and collectors who love them, Breitling vintages will be seen as worth preserving by the younger generation. Just my 2c.

Well, René, you are preaching to the choir (and a rather small one) in the vintage section, maybe doing a poll in the general "Breitling discussion" would help us understand ?

To hunt for the "perfect vintage" piece requires a lot of knowledge, and, as Cruvon says, most pieces are just not documented well enough; it would probably take the effort by Breitling themselves to support research and help to build "brand recognition" in the vintage community that would carry over to the general market.

Breitling seem to have little to no interest, although successful new launches like the TransOcean Chrono or the SuperOcean Heritage are hommage pieces to iconic vintage watches - almost none of the proud owners of these know about the original icons these watches are based upon. Did you see the pride in heritage that is reflected in the new JLC Deep Sea that Roff posted about last week viewtopic.php?f=6&t=36395 ?

Look at the amount of Breitling vintage junk for sale on ebay and other sites; fakes and frankens reach very similar price levels to authentic pieces, the Chinese and Argentinians are selling their "authentic" 3-hands in quite large quantities and nobody seems to care, people like Durner have been selling Frankenfakes for years on Chrono24 until I got fed up with it, TheSage Maerz is still alive and well and a "trusted seller" on chrono24 or ebay, with changing personae.

Just imagine them doing something similar with Rolex, the lawyers would have a field day.

I started with Breitling vintage, then moved towards the newer watches as my liking for size grew and my frustration at Frankens. Now I'm back where i started!

Of the newer Breitlings I have a Steelfish, an Airwolf and a Blackbird and i really don't want any other new offerings. But there are heaps of vintage pieces i like. I'm actually trying to negotiate a swap of the Airwolf for a vintage Pult. So i'll be around the vintage section a lot more from now on!

All of which sort of speaks to a demand for vintage Breitling, however uninformed. It's a maturing market, and sites like this generate the knowledge regarding authenticity without which a vintage market has no real foundation.

Shhhhh! Don't let the cat out o the bag! I like it better that the vintage pieces are "more economical". I prefer the vintage pieces (by far...I mean really, really far) but admit that the online research resources are limited. The best feeling is when your search for the right model with the right dial in the right case finally pans out. The bonus of getting a box and papers makes the vintage buy even more special. I can't see just going to the AD and buying a new one being as thrilling.

Online resources are improving but you really have to watch for those fakes/frankens. With time comes experience, though, and you get pretty good at spotting sketchy ones. I, for one, will be getting as many vintage pieces as I can while they are still relatively kind to my wallet.

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1961 ref 806
1967 ref 2002
1991 A10096
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Thanks for starting an interesting discussion. As a purely vintage collector I envy modern watch collectors for several things. The ease of maintenance and servicing and their robustness. I have several vintage watches where even finding the plastic crystal is next to impossible. I have vintage watches where if something happened to the movement, finding a replacement part would be prohibitively expensive. I wouldn't swim, shower or load children in and out of a car with a vintage watch on. So for someone who has a modern watch collection, dropping it off at Breitling and getting back the watch serviced and waterproof with no hassle must seem very attractive (how I wish ).

My experience in collecting vintage watches over the past ten or so years is that many have vanished. There are a lot more collectors out there than there was a decade ago and finding desirable, rare and collectible vintage watches is getting harder and more expensive. My personal theory is that within each brand there are a few super collectable models and these models are pulling away - in terms of price - from what collectors might see as the regular line of watches.

These Icon watches are desired by collectors who don't specialise on one brand (or who maybe do and now branch out), but collect across the brands and years. As an example with Breitling, vintage Navitimers have stayed more or less static in value over the last few years, where as a nice AVI or the early Superoceans, have climbed in that same period.

I'd also say that in my experience there is a lot of younger vintage collectors who are starting and continuing to collect, by that I mean between say 30 to 50 years old (no offence intended). These collectors, in a few years, going from owning 2 or 3 watches to owning 15 or 20. So again a lot of quality watches are disappearing into a growing pool of collectors hands.

Interestingly I asked a friend of mine who sells to Japan (which was a huge vintage market) where are all the watches from the Japanese collectors, since their economy has taken a battering over the last decade. He told me that about five years ago the Italians came over and bought them all!!

In terms of Breitling as a brand, I look at the way Heuer have developed as a vintage collectible, a forum like onthedash has focused a lot of attention and information on the brand, but it also seems to me that have one big advantage over Breitlings (in terms of collectability) is their connection to motor racing and the great heritage they have to draw on to give that brand a defining story. Breitling focused on aviation and doesn't have the same star name pedigree to draw on to bring it into the modern collectors consciousness. Do we have anything to compete with the Steve McQueen Monaco?

It's probably no accident that Rolex has the Paul Newman Daytona, the James Bond Submariner and the Steve McQueen explorer.

As for frankens and fakes, I'm not sure that we are in any worse situation that almost any vintage collectable and maybe even better off than say Rolex, who have had people expertly faking them for a lot longer.

A bit of a ramble for me, but a great topic for discussion.

Definitely I'm with Novacastrian on this one... I started off with vintage (particularly Breitling) too and slowly started off to contemporary.

I've certainly been more active on the other parts of the forum and try to expand my knowledge into other brands as well... vintage and contemporary... (jack of all trades, master of none as they say) I will also agree with some forum members too that over time I've realized that vintage pieces can get a bit "frustrating". The lack of spare parts, tracing the provenance, frankens, etc. But that's also part of the fun too I guess.

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"I don't got the bright watch I got the right watch" -Jay Z

Great comments and good points made by everyone !



risking going off on a tangent ,
So now that the Italian economy is taking a hit , or even the european economy as a whole, can we expect more pieces being offered ? , or are we not 'there' yet ? , where the japanese economy was hit hard for a decade or so and still is down , are we not in a position yet where european collectors will have to let their pieces go ? , or are we in a whole new world where 10 - 5 years ago the Italians (too keep with the above quote) had the opportunity to buy the japan pieces where these days global market places like Ebay are used and the prices are set by regions where the economy is good ?

Now I will admit that I also have a japanese source who's e-mail address , as you will understand, I wont share with other collectors. But he frequently has beautiful pieces for sale and his prices are still quite a bit lower than western european vintage dealers , so not all is lost



I am not quite sure I agree with the above, Breitling has the Iconic Navitimer that was in the James Bond books (replaced by Omega in most movies), sadly without a true Iconic ambassador , the Cosmonaute (Scott Carpenter) the James Bond Top Time and the Raquel Welsh Co-Pilot . What Breitling lacks/lacked is a Rolex world class campaign where for the last 7 decades people got fed the 'best watch in the world' line and bought into that. Everyone wanted a Rolex to show you made it in the world and the people that have bought Rolex's still do and adding to their collection the 'missing' and special pieces. Some of the Rolex vintage special pieces that are sought by collectors baffle me (spiderweb dial = dial manufacturing defect in my eyes) but even in the Vintage World Rolex seems to have a world class campaign to keep the myth (and prices) increasing . In light of the COMEX and Military prices a new Deep Sea is quite affordable with a potential of becoming collectable

What I have noticed lately is that comparisons are made between the Vintage SO's and the Blancpain fifty fathoms , the Unitime with the Patek (!) Worldtime , and also (as was mentioned above) the 're-release' of the new SuperOceans and the Transoceans, which are modeled after the original releases, as recognition of the Breitling heritage.

Are these signs on the wall for things to come for Breitling as well , or is it already happening and as Yaffle says "load of good pieces are quickly disappearing" and I just haven't noticed it yet ? (I will readily admit to being quite slow sometimes !)

One thing we as a collector community have still going for us is the relatively unknown Breitling brand and the 'tool watch' image , this allows for a few lucky 'buy now's' here and there for lowish prices where that is virtually impossible with other brands that are seen as high-end luxury watches

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"I spent most of my money on Booze, Breitling and Boats. The rest I wasted" - mostly Elmore Leonard

I restore and collect British cars from the 50s & 60s and there is great pride in owning a piece of history, more so than by buying a new car off the lot. I feel the same about watches and vintage art. when you have a piece of history it sets you apart from the average person. This is just my opinion. And it is even more special when people ask about your watch, car or piece of art and you can enlighten them about the past!!!

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"A man with one watch knows what time it is; a man with two watches is never quite sure."

I only started my interest in wrist watches only a few years ago. From Swatch, to Naked Watch (yes that is a company) to Tag Heuer to Breitling to Graham and back to Breitling there was different reasons to buy them all. Since then my taste in brands and model has matured. Like most they buy their first nice watch because they like it and it's affordable to them. If a relationship occurs between the owner and their watch. Begins their journey into a brand's models. Eventually they start discovering what that brand has to offer beyond the local AD's display case. Another ideal I have is that a lot of enthusiast take the time to collect could be an effort to remember and relive the past, discover a forgotten part of history or an object of interest or learn about a period of history that surrounds the time piece. Perhaps it just the complication itself. There's always the hope that we found the million dollar watch too.

I didn't start out being a vintage guy and still don't consider myself as a vintage collector either. Although my interest in vintage Unitime and Top Time watches has grown to a small obsession. There will be always new collectors and watches for them to collect (for example my Superocean Steelfish is no longer made but one day a collector will be interested in it as a vintage piece). But today Breitling has a good chance of moving themselves up the collectors market as Omega. They have been lacking for years as well. Buy watches you like and share your stories and discoveries. We all benefit one way or another. People have been collecting for centuries.