The Breitling Watch Source Forums

Hi Guys,
I´ve bought an RCAF Breitling and I´ve seen several on this board. I´d like you to have an honest look at it and say what you think, franken or real, as I have a fellow who won´t back down from his earlier obsevations. First he said it was a Fake,





After much convincing and links provided to NSN numbering, he slacked off that accusation, then in his eyes the engravings are wrong...etc.etc.
What do you guys say?
The first 4 pictures were suplied by the seller, watch polished (half to death) and very well lit.
The darker ones I done today!
The dial is scrached between 12:00 and 2:00, and a scratch at 11:00 (but hardly to be seen under normal lighting!)









Thanks for your time guys.

_________________
Knowledge talks, wisdom listens.
Only the wisest and the stupidest of men never change.

Can't comment on whether the dial is original to the procurement specs, and obviously as a military procurement it's a non standard dial for Breitling, but the case and movement look absolutely correct and the dial is consistent with similr pieces that I have seen.

Oh and I've handled a few more than 50 vintage Breitlings

looks alright to me...

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"I don't got the bright watch I got the right watch" -Jay Z

First off, Rene is a very advanced collector and is a respected and valued member here. He is very thorough and was raising some interesting points. Here, we all have our radar tweaked to detect fakes and frauds, which frequently come over our horizon.

In this instance, I'm quite confident that you have a genuine piece that matches the early batches made for RCAF. I had thought that there were just two batches, from which I have one of each. I thought there was a 1966 batch and a 1974 batch, but your pointing to Travises collection of examples shows me that there are numerous ones in between. I think some of your differences are from comparing the different batches and I'm left wondering whether some of the in between examples were done up as onsies and twosies to fill replacement needs. In other words, smaller batches for which additional variations might appear.

The earlier 1966 examples have Valjoux 23 movements, which I think you'll find in yours when you get it. The later 1974 ones have Valjoux 236 with just "Breitling Watch Ltd." on the bridge. There is a different pattern for the serial number on the backs of the later ones (I need to make some images, sorry). The hand set on the later ones is somewhat different, too. It would be good to track the differences on the ones in Travises list that span between 1966 and 1974 (107xxxx and 144xxxx).

I do think Schroechelbert's RCAF chrono for sale is genuine, but do I see exactly what Rene is noticing with the crude scratching of "Breitling Watch Corp." on the inside caseback. The one thing we cannot account for is the servicing that RCAF undertook themselves, especially the tritium removal issue. It had to be the DND that added the wierd script "Breitling" to the dial of many of these (see image attached). Rene is correct in noting that Breitling Lounge/Museum is an untrustworthy source of information. A lot of it is made up disinformation for sales promotion.

You had noted the long 3-6-9 lines on the minute totalizer in your post at MWR. Strange as it seems, those are a relic of the expensive trans-Atlantic phone calls and have been on Breitling dials since the 1940s. It has no military function and it's odd that of the different makes of RCAF one-button chronos, only Breitling stuck those on. I can only explain it as a habit that was hard to kick.

Yours is in very fine shape and shows almost no wear. Some of these seem to have been in use up to the present, including Canadian deployments in Afghanistan.

So thanks for posting it here as well so I can explain my objections to this particular watch. I wont go into the Michael M fake unless someone wants to

For the record, I didnt 'back down' on WUS , I was simply done with my assessment of the watch that the topic starter showed us but as the same questions are asked here I will answer them here again as well

One interesting comment that the Topic Starter(TS) made is "The first 4 pictures were suplied by the seller, watch polished (half to death) and very well lit."

Ask yourself, if the watch case is polished half to death , there must have been a lot of usage of the watch , which I would expect from a military watch. So why is the case back, caseback engraving as new and looks like it was recently done ? , I believe because its a recent job. Same for the dial and movement

so my objections to this watch are :

Breitling has been stamping movement bridges at least since the mid 50ies. Why is the bridge of this watch engraved ?, this is inconsistent with the period AND with other Military Breitling watches that float around on the web



As you can see the left bridged are clearly stamped with Seventeen 17 jewels Breitling swiss unadjusted. Just like one would expect . However the TS watch is engraved and inconsistent. the "S" and "B" do not have the same starting point the 17 is not over the G as in the others and the W from swiss dropped and is misformed .

And if you look at the bridge where the jewels are fitted, do you notice how the holes where the jewels sit are straight , and not angled like an original Breitling stamped bridge ? again an inconsistency

Also the inside of the caseback is clearly engraved, and NOT stamped as the other watches are , so 2 engravings which are both coincidentally Breitling marks ?



so this, together with the brandnew engraving on the back which is inconsistent with a polished to deatch damaged military watch still leads me to conclude that this is a fake / franken watch unless someone else shows me a watch from the same era with the same 'inconsistencies' that is a proven original (and I dont mean the Michael M fake ! as I can tear that one apart as well as being fake on several points)

p.s. Bill ? , thanks for the compliment !!

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"I spent most of my money on Booze, Breitling and Boats. The rest I wasted" - mostly Elmore Leonard

quite convincing, René. Thank you for this post, learning a lot from it.

edit: René (and Roff, Bill, Yaffle and any others "in the know", of course), below are pics of the Schroederbert/Michael/TheEnlightenedSage´s example that sold some weeks agi, I assume this is the one you referred to in your post. The bridge differences are clear, as is the crude Breitling engraving inside the caseback, but could you add any other tells you see on this one, please ? Would be great to have some more information about these, as they seem to be the target of Frankenfakes quite often.

Thanks Fred,

here's why I believe the Michael Marz watch is also a fabrication.
Good watches on the left , the fake on the right

again, "Breitling Watch LTD." "Swiss Made" and serial numbers stamped , not engraved.
Also note that watches are from the same era and there should NOT be a reason why Breitling suddenly started to do (very bad !) engravings

and the serial number always follow a pattern of 1 234 456 , with spaces between the number groupings , the fake one has the serial all lumped together without spacing

the bridge , please note that on the left we have a Breitling bridge marking that we are all familiar with , the one of the right however is (again) an engraving , "B" is most notably different between the 2 but the whole font is incorrect and if you look closely the "T" in LTD is almost as long as the "L" where in original stampings the L is capped with the td smaller and aligned with the top of the L and the d isnt even looking like a d at all

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"I spent most of my money on Booze, Breitling and Boats. The rest I wasted" - mostly Elmore Leonard

p.s.
here you can see better what I mean with the Ltd. (from a V178 movement, same script though)

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"I spent most of my money on Booze, Breitling and Boats. The rest I wasted" - mostly Elmore Leonard

just noticed one of my own remarks and it add to the proof that the TS watch is fake

ALL military breitling I have been able to find follow the 1 234 567 format for the serial numbers , except the 1 from the TS and the one from Michael Marz , which have serials lumped together without spaces

here's the 'known' list so far , they even went as far as to add the spaces in the list as well , and the pics above support my claim , but as always I am willing to state my error if overwhelming proof is presented

http://www.flying-time.de/wbb2/thread.p ... light=rcaf
1 073 822 (1966) - 1256/67 - hondikee.com
1 073 828 (1966) - ? - Knirim Buch
1 073 97? (1966) - 1358/67 - Canada
? (196?) - 1514/67 - Canada
1 074 069 (1966) - 1227/67 - Germany
1 074 332 (1966) - 60/67 - Canada
1 123 076 (1967) - 2103/67
1 123 157 (1968) - 1805/67 - Germany
1 294 942 (1969) - 2303 - Canada
1 XXX XXX (1969) - 2305 - USA
1 421 097 (1973) - 162 - Canada
1 421 398 (1974) - 317 - Austria*
1 446 125 (1977) - 1086 - Canada
1 446 331 (1977) - 978 - USA
1 446 427 (1977) - 691 - Germany
1 446 567 (1977) - 869

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"I spent most of my money on Booze, Breitling and Boats. The rest I wasted" - mostly Elmore Leonard

Wrong again, you are dangerous! You throw around with your insinuations without studying first!
You didn´t have a clue about these watches to begin with, then the numbering was a fantasy...You haven´t got a clue about military watches and yet you branded them as fakes!. You don´t know how the military system works, I may have been insuficiantly informed to begin with, but I know a lot more today. I was doing my homework as well, I got in touch with Konrad Knirim and James Dowling and am awaiting a reply from someone in Toronto who is an expert on these watches,

I may have been insufficiently informed what these RCAF watches are concerned, but I do know my military watches. I look and ask first, before making any hasty conclusions and decisions!

Here first of all is James Dowlings Watch which he presented here;
http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&th=1685534&mid=5823077&rid=15&rev=&reveal=
and here are numerous other like mine!

http://www.breitlingsource.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=20668

http://www.flickr.com/photos/47548641@N06/5124416926/in/photostream/lightbox/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/47548641@N06/4448992621/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/47548641@N06/4449755720/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/47548641@N06/4449755716/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/47548641@N06/4449755712/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/47548641@N06/4449755672/

This isn´t France in the 18th century, where one was guilty till proven innocent...

_________________
Knowledge talks, wisdom listens.
Only the wisest and the stupidest of men never change.

a few more, as only 10 url´s are allowed in one post.
http://www.breitlingsource.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=17774&start=15

http://www.vintagewatch.ca/?p=314#more-314

http://www.breitlingsource.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12178

http://www.breitlingsource.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=20143&start

http://www.******.com/blog/2011/12/7/bonhams-highlight-signed-omega-single-button-chronograph-mad.html

_________________
Knowledge talks, wisdom listens.
Only the wisest and the stupidest of men never change.

well, that's my cue . I am done with this thread and I wish you all the best

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"I spent most of my money on Booze, Breitling and Boats. The rest I wasted" - mostly Elmore Leonard

Why? that would be too easy to back out now, after I have done my homework!
You have only gone by your own judgement, Ok, fair enough, but you should also look and listen to what others have to say.

_________________
Knowledge talks, wisdom listens.
Only the wisest and the stupidest of men never change.

true

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"I spent most of my money on Booze, Breitling and Boats. The rest I wasted" - mostly Elmore Leonard

So, I will continue to say this :

I dont care about any other watches , including JR's watch as we're talking about YOUR WATCH
The minute you start talking like your fellow countryman you so vehemently defend I am done for good good with this thread

But to reference the other watches you posted, I dont know which are Breitlings by all the loose links ?

The serial number on JR's watch does look suspicious as its not spaced. and remember JR might be a rolex expert , I doubt he's a Breitling expert ?

so which of my assessments of YOUR watch is incorrect ?

_________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Breitling and Boats. The rest I wasted" - mostly Elmore Leonard