The Breitling Watch Source Forums

Well put, exactly what I was thinking, you just put it into words...

_________________
--
sco
Breitling Chrono Superocean
Omega Aqua Terra 8500
Rolex Submariner Date Ceramic

The fault does not lie with the boutique. All they did was look at a watch someone brought in and determined the watch is fake. That is a fair and legitimate service. What use that letter gets put to after that is beyond their control, and does not change the nature of the service they providing. The letter could just as easily be used for legitimate purposes as fraudulent.

The real problem is that PayPal is using such a letter as evidence in deciding a claim, when the letter has minimal probative value on the question that is at issue - namely, did you send a watch other than the one you advertised in the sale? Obviously, the letter doesn't answer that question. This is why I think your efforts should be aimed less at Breitling, and more at PayPal. It sound like it's their claims process that is the problem here - essentially they're paying claims that have not been shown to have merit. If you can prove that, then you've got something to go after them with.

Edit: Shark beat me to it on the first paragraph. I still emphasize the latter paragraph, though: PayPal is the party you want to focus on.

Is there really anyway of protecting yourself selling online? I'm fortunate to have sold watches to honest buyers but to hear about straight up sellers getting ripped off by thugs peeves me off. Would it help much if you take a video of the process of packaging the watch all the way to hand delivering the package at the shipping office? This way, at least you have some form of evidence that the watch in the shipment is authentic.

Don't get me wrong, I am not holding them accountable. However, there needs to be a disclaimer on their letters that they cannot be used in PayPal disputes since they don't prove what was shipped or delivered. You put these letters in the wrong hands and look at the result. Everyone can pull this scam off with the aid of a $100 letter they get from Breitling. With PayPal being the ultimate problem, giving away the "key" to ripping off someone in that medium is just dangerous. I would expect a little more defense from a company I've spent $15K with, but they don't care. If I walked into their store and said I need a letter drafted related to a replica watch so I can defraud someone on eBay, do you think they would do it? Of course not. I do not see any problem with them contacting PayPal to demand their letters not be used in their buyer/seller disputes for these reasons. This has to make sense to you guys, right? Of course I'm biased here, but this should stil be changed for future protection of proven Breitling owners.

I agree with you. I've said all this from the start. However, PayPal doesn't care about sellers and they will avoid me at all avenues. I needed to reach out to a party that could potentially help me. Of course I'm going to ask Breitling whom I've supported to the tune of $15K. Their company telling PayPal that their letters are inadmissible in their disputes makes a lot more impact than me saying it. Should this thing go to court, why would they want their letter and their company involved? It's in their best interest to have their unintentional involvement removed no matter what. Not to mention, it's the right thing to do in fairness to their actual customer (me) from being defrauded.

I would have no problem defending my customers from fraud elsewhere. In fact, I have done so in my own line of work.

1. Ship with Insurance
2. Ship with Tracking Number
3. Have UPS Take Pictures in-store with their own camera
4. Have UPS write an affidavit confirming serial number on product or some identifiable mark
5. Record them on your phone packing item
6. Confirm the buyer's address (don't just take PayPal's confirm label only) before you ship so it's not some hole-in-the-wall restaurant in the ghetto of Brooklyn. Always ship to the buyer's home, and make sure their name matches the address in a search.
7. Ask the buyer to call you before you ship, and make them aware the shipper is backing up all contents for authenticity in case they plot this return fraud scam.
8. Don't deal with Brooklyn. This is the counterfeit jewelry capital of the world.
9. Don't take Feedback at face value. Check for other history of buying big items, not just inexpensive items. Typically these guys have great feedback across multiple accounts in different names.

10. Maintain a relationship with a watch forum and sell to people you "know" there.

_________________
SHARKMAN

The letter can be used to prove a material fact: namely, that the watch is fake. That is a relevant question. If the buyer claimed you sent the wrong watch, but a legitimate watch of value (say, a Breitling Navi 01, instead of a Bentley), the buyer would have to send you that watch back in order to get a refund. He could not keep an item of value and also get a refund; that's called unjust enrichment, and is barred by law. However, if he claims he received a fake watch, he doesn't have to return it, since the watch is essentially illegal contraband. So, to that end, the letter from Breitling is probative on that element of the claim. Furthermore, Breitling cannot proscribe uses for their letters. It's up to each adjudicating body to determine what standards of proof and admissibility to apply. Providers of proof have no say over how that proof is used. That would be like a witness on the stand in court being able to rule on an objection by one of the lawyers - can't be done.

However, as we've now said ad nauseum, the letter does not prove what is probably the most important element of the claim, and that is that the watch the buyer received is not the watch you promised to send. That element should have to be proven in order for the claimant to prevail. And that's the crux of the issue: is PayPal using a legitimate means of resolving disputes, or are they facilitating fraud by siding with claims not proven to be of merit?

My best advice to you at this point is to consult an attorney to see if you have any recourse against PayPal. It seems like you've exhausted all other options.

Does this evaluation letter prove that it's the watch I shipped and delivered to this guy? No. If the buyer does not have to return anything, how can a $100 letter be enough evidence here? He should have to show the watch to PayPal at least so they can compare it to my listing as well as the original purchase receipt for the watch I listed. I have proof I owned the authentic watch in question. That is more powerful than any arbitrary letter someone paid to acquire which doesn't prove what they were shipped to their address.

PayPal should be looking at the buyer's address, which is a restaurant in the Brooklyn Ghetto, not his home. Red Flag.

They should also look at his abbreviated name on the account... which I can't find any record of anywhere since it's abbreviated.

Meanwhile, I'm a proven owner of the Breitling watch in question. I spent the $9k in 2008, yet I'm instantly deemed a scammer? I list my home address on my account which is an affluent neighborhood in Southern California, and the messages to the buyer also provide my phone number for him to call me. If I'm attempting to rip someone off, why am I such an open-book while the buyer is hiding everything there is to know about him? PayPal is just ruling in favor of their user agreement. They probably did not even look at the evidence presented including this letter being used to claim a counterfeit watch.

I'm consulting an Attorney as well as the Brooklyn police. I want more information on this guy. Perhaps a PI is necessary in effort to find a criminal record.

Still disappointed in Breitling. A simple letter to PayPal stating that their letters only evaluate watches presented to them would have been helpful. Even if futile, I would expect this company to help their proven watch customers, not their proven letter buyers.

I think that's a good idea.

Reporting to the police is a wise idea. If the buyer did this to you... chances are, he's done it to others. Brooklyn Police may already have a file on the prick. Good luck mate!

And something you should have done sooner as soon as the first suspicions/doubts came up.


Sent from my Galaxy SII using Tapatalk

_________________


- This is Ghost Rider requesting a fly-by. - Negative Ghost Rider. The pattern is full.

wrote about my "solution" for these problem in the "other thread" that got hijacked by discussions about the female physique.

as we are faced with a similar problem with tech components and warranties (you would not believe how many Fortune 500 companies try to cheat), we have been marking non-numbered components for decades, nicer and more professionally, but basically the same way.

When I sell a watch through ebay, I communicate with the buyer that I am signing/marking the watch "to make sure it is not exchanged by some crook during transport", grab a quick picture and email this through ebay messages, so there is no discussion he "never received it".

It is almost impossible to fake this on another watch, lines just will not align properly; a legit buyer needs about a minute to remove sticker and signatures; the crook will have to go and look for somebody else to cheat. works.

Will not help the OP, but maybe others.

an example, though I try to write/sign more legibly in real transactions:

For US use only, there is a very good website to check the buyer:

http://www.criminalsearches.com

can be very interesting!

BG
Thomas

_________________
http://www.ellert.at

I can't help to resolve this situation, only to sympathise.

I do however have a possible option for future watch sales:

Take all the normal precautions to ensure that the buyer is legit. Even speak on the phone to them.
Categorically state in the auction/advert that the paperwork - including a copy of your sales invoice from whom you bought it - will be sent after they confirm that the watch is received.

This would prove that you had the watch, and that by stating this intention in the auction, also proves that you are taking steps to ensure a tricky ride for any would be scammers.

Also, if you should need to report the watch as stolen, then you have the documentation to back it up.
The serial number will then be blacklisted.
Maybe Pawnbrokers etc. use such a facility as this:
http://www.watchsearcher.com/en/

_________________
Oyster Date '78, Blackbird chrono DLC '10, Blackbird chrono' 02, Navitimer Fighters '02, Aerospace Evo , Seamaster Chrono Diver 300' 02, Carrera cbm2110