The Breitling Watch Source Forums

Thanks, Roff. The Maxi Marine series strike me as pretty spendy, considering they're not in-house. Do you think the modifications and window dressing warrant the price tag?

That's a personal decision. UN make some fairly significant modifications - just like Breitling do.

I found an interesting post on Watch Talk Forums about the "myth" of modifications performed by many brands on ETA ebauches. I had forgotten, but the author specifically addressed the UN-26 in his post, and said the movement could actually be ordered almost exactly the same way from ETA, obviating the need for substantial modifications by the watch manufacturer. I don't know enough about this matter to have an inkling one way or the other, but I'm interested in your thoughts on it.

I think that post misses the point of modifications.

ETA produce a number of different levels of each caliber - we've discussed this before. As you move through the grades you get smaller tolerances and better finishing until you end up with the highest (chronometer) grade where the movement is highly finished and designed to be capable of achieving COSC specs (it isn't certified).

When brands modify movements it is not solely (or indeed predominantly) for looks, rather it's for accuracy, consistency, reliability, etc. Some pieces are replaced as a matter of course and replaced with others source from 3rd parties or produced in house - the balance complete for example, while others are measured to tighter tolerances than ETA measures to and parts are replaced if they fail to meet those tighter tolerances. The result should be a more consistently accurate piece that is easier to regulate and is more reliable - who cares if the rotor finishing is in house or not?

Some manufacturers will do far more fundamental work - my Franc Vila is technically a modified ETA but pretty much only the base plate is used.

From the Watch Time Superocean review:

"Prior to having the movement tested, Breitling fine tunes the escapement, adds a higher quality mainspring, centers the hairspring, poises the balance and regulates the movement in five positions."

This is actually the only specific mention that ive ever found of what exactly Breitling do.

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-RJ

The author seems to have a point to prove (agenda) and sets about to do it, which always requires a critical, if not skeptical, read. He mentions several times his belief or suspicion going in was watch manufacturers have been lying for years about the degree of substantive (NOT decorative) modification they do to Swatch Group movements and the ONLY thing he MAY have established is the rotors and bridges MAY have arrived decorated by ETA. Frankly I could care less (though he doesn't PROVE that either, because all he does is note Geneve' stripes on the rotor and perlage on the bridges are available options, not that Breitling, UN, or some others actually buy ebauches with with that option. It's not as though those basic decorations are unique to Swatch Group - they are so widely used they have a names!). Is it really a suprise to anyone that Swatch offers varying levels of decoration as well as mechanical tolerances, etc... in their movements? The latter has been written about extensively here for along time.

Has the author proved his premise - the Swiss watch industry is lying about the degree of modifications they do to Swatch movement kits? No, he establised only that Swatch offers a whole host of options (we already knew that) and Geneve stripes all look basically the same (well duh! That's why they have a name - they are a specific type of decoration. As is perlage on bridges which can be found on Patek movments as well.).

So in the end, the author's smoking guns are three things visible from the back of a movement - (1) Geneve stripes, (2) perlage, and (3) blued screws. From that he makes a huge leap to essentially no modifcations to the escapement, etc... Yet he offers no evidence of any sort.

One final thought, if the Breitlings of the Swiss watch industry really were not heavily modifyng the Swatch Group ebauches, including purchasing higher grade critical parts, WHY did the Swatch Group need to change tack and offer for sale completed movements only, prohibiting other brands from improving their movements? If the author is correct, seems not only was Swatch Groups decision unecessary, but also are the waves of change we see rippling through the brands like Breitling.

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SHARKMAN

Makes a lot of sense, fellas. Thanks for the feedback.

Good point.

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-RJ

Indeed.

I think the author of that article has (as others have said) missed the point that a lot of modification can be performance related as opposed to decorative...... in which case you won't see a damn thing from looking at the rotor!

However, this whole thing raises yet again a point that I've made more than once on here, and that is that I would like companies to be totally upfront and transparent about what they have in their watches. If it's a standard ETA movement, then say so. If it's fitted with an upgraded mainspring, then tell us that it is. If it's modified from standard but all done by ETA, then let us know! It shouldn't be too hard, but most companies act like they're Colonel Sanders after he's been asked to reveal his "secret blend of herbs and spices".

There's no doubt in my mind that some "modifications" performed by some brands are little more than a bit of rotor decoration, but then at the other end of the spectrum, there are some that very heavily modify them. The problem IMO is simply one of clarity and transparency in terms of being open and honest about what has and hasn't been done to a movement. Sure, while a lot of WIS folk (like me) do care what's in a watch, most non-WIS folk won't give a damn,............ but equally there are some non-WIS folk who actually might care if they were given all the facts. If you are new to the whole watch thing it's very easy to assume that all watch companies make their own movements..... a problem proliferated by the way companies can call a 7750 something else if they do literally anything to it.

For me, what is or isn't done to standard ETA movements isn't the issue : the BIG issue for me, is COMMUNICATION about what is or isn't done to them.

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Driver8

Site Moderator

Not for much longer.

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SHARKMAN

My "agenda" is to un-pull the wool over watch buyer's eyes that the Swiss watchmaking industry has been doing for years.

But you wouldn't be biased in the direction of Breitling, would you Mr. Breitling Source facilitator? I own a Breitling and am still enamored with it after almost 4 years, but after years of moderating and seeing newer members believing that their new ETA powered watch is "in-house" I decided to do some research. That led me to interview 4 watchmakers who all told me basically the same thing - these so-called modified movements are done at ETA, not at the brand's facilities.

However, you are free to post your opinion no matter how slanted it is in the opposite direction. So where is your "smoking gun"? If I'm wrong, prove it.

Since you're the one alleging Breitling, et al, aren't modifying ETA movements the way they claim, isn't it your job to prove yourself right?

I offered the evidence. All the watchmakers I talked to pointed me to the ETA links and even said that the movements come in from ETA even with the rotors engraved. ETA removed the links to the .pdf files within a few days of the article being posted. I had printed them out and scanned them into Google documents though. The title "smoke and mirrors" is a direct quote from one of the Breitling-trained watchmakers which seemed appropriate.

Don't you think if these manufacturers were actually doing any real work they'd be mentioning it in their advertising?

....wait..... I forgot the name of this forum. Sorry I tried to burst the fanboy bubble! Please resume normal activity.

If you would spend any time here, you would see we're hardly Breitling fanboys. We spend as much time bashing the brand as we do praising it these days, more perhaps. I have no problem with you defending your position, but it is unrealistic of you not to expect some questioning. Scrutiny of assertions is the hallmark of intellectual rigor; every Ph.D. candidate must defend his or her dissertation. To suggest that any questioning of your assertions by us is invalid, and attributable only to brand bias, is not only incorrect; it actually lessens your credibility. Not to mention, it's rude. You don't see us coming to your forum and insulting you, do you?