The Breitling Watch Source Forums

If something is real or fake adding papers or a box makes it no less fake or real. So to answer your question more specifically no, it adds nothing to my decision process. In fact it can be used to help validate that the item is real when it actually is not. Thats why I use zero bias for or against the purchase based on the paperwork.

If I have to validate that a watch is authentic placing any weight on the paperwork at all that means I don't have 100% confidence in the watch being authentic.

Take for example the cert shown above that was sold for $20 bucks on e-bay. It will undoubtedly be placed with a box and a very good looking fake then sold at a premium. The buyer may in fact never even know that he or she received a fake.

Put a set of papers and a box with this and you have a master fake.


Look at it another way.. You want to buy a watch that looks good but your just not sure. Then you see a nice set of paperwork with a box. Are you more or less likely to think it's real?

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This is a Rochefoucauld, the thinnest water-resistant watch in the world. Singularly unique, sculptured in design,hand-crafted in Switzerland.
In Philadelphia it's worth Fifty bucks.

You seem to presuppose that it's just a matter of "sticking" any old boxes and papers with any old watch. That overlooks the reality that specific watches, even by the same brand, can come with different boxes and different papers. It depends on the maker and model, of course, as well as the vintage of the watch, but if you know a certain watch came with a specific set of packaging and inserts, those are more things that the counterfeiter has to get right. I come back to the example of my Omega. If it's a fake, the counterfeiter would have had to (1) make the watch look dead-on like the real thing; (2) procure or counterfeit the unique packaging, including all boxes, papers and inserts, that came with that edition only; (3) match the serial number they engrave on the watch to the specific model of that watch, so when I call Omega to verify the serial number, it will match the model of watch I have; (4) find out who the original seller of that specific watch was, so when I call Omega to verify the watch's original purchaser, it will match the name on the warranty card; which also means they will have to (5) have all the packaging correlate to the original seller; and (6) even go so far as to fabricate that seller's logo sticker that was on the outside of the box. Granted, it's possible a very determined, ambitious and talented counterfeiter, or team of counterfeiters, could do that, but the odds are against it; with that much they need to get right, there are that many more chances to get it wrong. Also, they would have to do it per watch, since every watch has a different serial number and potentially different original seller. That's a labor intensive process, and not cost effective. Fakers make cheap watches they can sell cheaply and still make a profit. I don't see it happening, at least in my case, which is why I put stock in the packaging that came with my watch.

I never presupposed anything however counterfeiters have become very sophisticated and some of the replicas are very high quality. A very good copy can cost 200-300 dollars. If a determined scammer buys 10 good fake watches for $2500 like the one listed above in the video and matches them with boxes and papers procured off e-bay or counterfeited they can make a killing on just 10 transactions in a month. They can sell the watch for a 10X mark up and pull in 30K a month! If they concentrate on just 10 really good fakes they can simply find the information on the internet or e-bay for serial numbers and selling dealers.

It's not the cheap fake that concerns me it's the really good one. The scammer will use the paperwork against you and help you validate his counterfeit.

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This is a Rochefoucauld, the thinnest water-resistant watch in the world. Singularly unique, sculptured in design,hand-crafted in Switzerland.
In Philadelphia it's worth Fifty bucks.

Like I said, we'll agree to disagree.

I have to somehow agree with TX Turbo, some buyers place too much trust in papers and boxes.

I've seen this with other collectables, when scammers modify or create paperwork from scratch. There are techniques which allow to erase serial number from the certificate and new number to be filled in, and then can be paired with a fake.

Don't get me wrong, I love it when a watch comes as complete package, but for the right price I am willing to buy a watch without accessories.

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Chronomat :: Evolution Red | Evolution Frecce Tricolori | Longitude
Navitimer :: Montbrillant Eclipse | Old II | Current
Professional :: B-1 | B-2 w UTC
Colt :: GMT

I was going to stay quiet on this, but what the hey? I see merit in Turbo's position. In situations where a given brand has the same packaging for all their watches, it would be a relatively straightforward process for a counterfeiter to supply reasonable facsimiles of packaging and papers to go with the watch. I was providing my situation as an example of how the presence of box and papers definitely contributes indications of authenticity, since it would be quite difficult for a counterfeiter to put all the pieces of the puzzle together. There are simply too many indicators in the packaging that match up, when confirmed with both the manufacturer and the original dealer, for someone to have been able to fake them all. For some reason, Turbo won't address that, and seems intent instead on focusing on the general argument. Granted, mine was an unusual case, but I believe it's still a valid example.

Your example makes sense, but only if a buyer knows specifics and details of proper Breitling package. Realistically, how many people outside of Breitling enthusiasts and dealer network will know intricate details about packaging?

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Chronomat :: Evolution Red | Evolution Frecce Tricolori | Longitude
Navitimer :: Montbrillant Eclipse | Old II | Current
Professional :: B-1 | B-2 w UTC
Colt :: GMT

Probably not many, but I've been looking at it from the perspective of the people in this community, most of whom either know a lot about the brand/other brands, or are seeking to learn. But yeah, to the general population of watch buyers, my example isn't very applicable.

Lot's of great replies on this topic, but as a somewhat new watch aficionado, I can tell you that with my first "real watch" purchase I tossed away the box. (At least I kept the manuals and other paperwork.)

But another thought should be this. How long do you plan on keeping this particular watch? Most of us find that after one purchase we quickly move on to a second or third. Do you plan on trading it? This is where you will find your value takes the biggest hit. In my experience you can expect to get about a third less (or more) than if you had all the original B/P. (Again, my opinion others will say less or more depending on the specific brand.) Never mind you can purchase a "period box" and papers from any number of sources online as well.

I have and will in the future buy a watch without boxes and papers from a reputable seller with references on this site or some of the many others. Provided I plan on keeping it for awhile....

Of course this all being dependent on the watch being authentic.

Best of luck in your decision.

-Carl

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Breitling

Montbrilliant Eclipse

Panerai

88D GMT
112C Luminor Base
61E Marina Luminor
24C Submersible

I'm with txturbo. I've purchased a couple of my watches without B&P. I paid a lot less for them. I don't wear the box. I don't sleep with the papers under my pillow. I saved hundreds doing it this way. If I cared to, I could replace the box, send the watch to BUSA for polishing and I've got a set of box and papers, and I'm still ahead.

If you're buying a watch because you like the 30 second high you get when you open the box, I'm sorry, but that's foolish. You really think you get a smaller high if the box you're opening isn't OEM? And how long does that last?

The extra money I have left in my bank account gives me a better high every time I check the balance.

Having not sent a piece into BUSA I don't know the answer, but by your reply it implies that by sending in a piece you are given new papers. Is this true and to what extent to you get papers...IE COSC, users manual, warranty card...surely they don't supply those with sending in a watch do they?

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I believe a replacement COSC certificate can be bought and having papers from the service pretty much shows the watch is authentic.

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Justin
Please contact me via PM for the contact details for Govberg Jewelers
Govberg is an AD for over 50 fine Swiss and German watch brands.
Visit them on the web at http://www.govbergwatches.com or call 800-528-8463

Ahhh ok thanks Justin...cool when I get back to the states I may send one of my pieces in for service, good to know.

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You can also get an instructions manual for $10 and the COSC cert is $75 (takes about 6 weeks). After it's in for service, you have have the service book as well. It's the majoirty of your paperwork when new.

Right, and boxes pop up all over the place. The point here is that for probably less than $200, you can get the paperwork and boxes if you want to spend the effort.