The Breitling Watch Source Forums

Hello All!

I read a thread in the General Watch Discussion section titled Titanium vs. Steel which I copied & pasted the following from Driver8:

Now in terms of titanium, Breitling use Grade 1 titanium alloy which has a hardness somewhere in the region of 160 to 200 (and apparently most commonly about 180) on teh Vickers scale. As you can see, this is some way below the steel that Breitling uses in terms of hardness, and hence explains the scratch-happy nature of Breitling titanium watches.

However, some manufacturers (such as JLC, IWC, Girard Perregaux) use Grade 5 titanium alloy whcih has a hardness of around 360 on the Vickers scale, which is actually considerably more than 316L steel. This goes some way to explain why even top manufacturers use titanium as I was really struggling to see the benefits, other than lightness. As a result I'm not going to be put off titanium in future as long as it's Grade 5..... although the lightness may still be a bit of a problem for me as I tend to prefer heavy watches.

I feel that Breitling cut corners by using an inferior grade of titanium & to be honest since I read this very informative thread I kinda don't want the bloody watch anymore tho I really like it. It is just the knowledge that it is an inferior grade of titanium as compared with the industry standard as we can see from the above quote really bothers me!!!

As a result I kinda what to get rid of it or am I being silly?

I have an IWC Mark XVI incoming & I could trade toward that purchase or should I just keep it?

Please let me know how you feel about the Seawolf Ti!!!

Thank You Very Much For Your Prompt Replies,

Enezdez

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IWC - Big Pilot 5002 - 01
IWC - Pilot Chrono 3717 - 04
Panerai - 183
Omega - Speedmaster 145.012 / 67
Rolex - Explore II (Black Dial) - 216570
Rolex - Explore I 114270
Blancpain FF 5015

You think Breitling use an inferior grade of titanium? You should try a Tissot, now they are bloody soft. I had a T-Touch and thankfully managed to return it.

Right when I bought my first Breitling, (an Aerospace) and joined this site, I asked what grade of Ti they use, but no one really knew back then. I'm still not convinced its that soft, as I've owned a few including the Seawolf Ti and none have been as bad as the Tissot.

I own three ti watches all breitling, including a seawolf. The CA is my daily and it takes a serious beating...love it and it is not that soft. Going on five years, one service, runs great and still looks great. A couple dings here and there, but my steel watches got those too.

i agree Breitling Ti could be grade 1 but not as soft as someone think.

i have an Avanger Seawolf since years, dings like a steel one..

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Breitling Antares B10047
Breitling Chronomat B13050
Breitling Chronomat A13050.1 - pilot bracelet
Breitling Chronomat Blackbird A13050.1 - serie spéciale
Breitling Avenger Seawolf E17370
Breitling Chronomat EVO A13356 - pilot bracelet

If you love the watch and enjoy Breitling's design then keep it. Selling it because you think it's inferior is silly....there will always be something 'superior' out there...now if you really just don't like the watch anymore then that's a different story.

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"I don't own any watches, I just lease them"

I would not say Gr1 Ti is inferior, just not standard and not as good as it could be. And, I would not account hardness as the only measure in resistance to scratching. A hardness measurement (Vickers, Brinell, Rockwell, etc) has very, very little to do with surface scratches. Those measurements rely on plastic deformation of the material - meaning permanent, irreversible damage to the material. Ti behaves a bit like aluminum in that its outermost layer (think nanometers) is actually a ceramic. The outermost layer oxidizes with the ambient oxygen in air. So, minus the alloying materials, the outside of Ti is essential Titianium Dioxide in the same way that the outermost layer of Al is Aluminum Dioxide. The thing that is actually scratching on your watch is the 'ceramic' layer. Hence, it is easy to restore the finish with a Bergeon pen or ScotchBrite. It is just the nature of the beast. The surface treatment is the difference. Breitling and other brands choose a matte finish. JLC and others seem to do some polishing which does not explicitly change material properties but, they do vary the surface. Ti is a different beast but overblown in its reputation by those with limited knowledge.

Relax. The Ti Seawolf is a very fine piece. I wish it weren't so large as a Ti Seawolf on a ProII would be my daily watch.

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Steelfish GMT LE (white)

top post this!
i didn't know about the 'ceramic' layer....

thanks

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Breitling Antares B10047
Breitling Chronomat B13050
Breitling Chronomat A13050.1 - pilot bracelet
Breitling Chronomat Blackbird A13050.1 - serie spéciale
Breitling Avenger Seawolf E17370
Breitling Chronomat EVO A13356 - pilot bracelet

Great post Budlum24. As I said before, I have a background in physics and interest in materials technology, but it's not my profession so it's always good to hear additional info.

You're correct of course about the surface oxidation of titanium, which is why ti watch often appear to scratch more than steel. If the darker surface oxide is scratched, the brighter underlying metal shows through, so highlighting the scratch. However, it also means that scratches tend to appear to "heal themselves" slightly over time as the bright scratches area oxidises to match the surrounding metal.

I also agree with you that Grade 1 is certainly not inferior per se, but it really depends on the application, and from what I understand of the various grades, Grade 1 is inferior to Grade 5 for watchmaking purposes. From what I know, Grades 1 to 4 are considered pure (i.e. unalloyed) titanium, but the strength of the metal increases with the number.... which means that Grade 1 is the least strong (relatively speaking of course), and is also the softest. Grade 5 is a titanium alloy with 6% aluminium and 4% vanadium and is a lot stronger and (as I said before) much harder. Now, I know the scratch resistance of titanium is somewhat governed by the ability of it's oxide layer to resist damage, but IMO the hardness of the underlying metal has a huge bearing on the ability of a watch to resist deeper scratches. The softer a metal is, the more likely it is to be damaged by impacts.

To use my tungsten carbide Lum Tec as an example, and I know it doesn't form a surface oxide, but as a substance it is extremely hard and dense and is therefore extremely scratch-resistant. To my mind (and again, ignoring any surface oxidation), the softer a metal is, the worse it is for making something that may be exposed to mechanical damage..... like a watch. I'm sure that if you conducted an identical scratch test on a piece of grade 1 and a piece of grade 5, the scratch on the softer grade 1 would be worse due to the fact that the underlying metal itself would be penetrated to a deeper depth.

As I say, metals are certainly not my profession - just an interest - so if this is incorrect logic, then I'm happy to be corrected!

Certainly from my own experience of titanium Breitling watches, I can say that they seem more prone to surface scratches and deeper damage than steel.

In terms the OP - if you like the watch then what it's made of shouldn't be a problem. To me it's like the ETA vs in-house argument - for some people it bothers them : for others it doesn't. And as said above, grade 1 ti isn't a "sub-standard" metal or anything - I'd just argue that it's not the best titanium for use in making watches. I assume this is why the likes of JLC, who are higher end watch makers that Breitling, use grade 5.

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Driver8

Site Moderator

Hello All!

Thank You All Very Much For Your Input, I Do Like The Watch - I Guess I Will Keep It!

(Perhaps I Was Being Silly - With All Of My Thoughts & Ramblings)

Cheers,

Enezdez

_________________
IWC - Big Pilot 5002 - 01
IWC - Pilot Chrono 3717 - 04
Panerai - 183
Omega - Speedmaster 145.012 / 67
Rolex - Explore II (Black Dial) - 216570
Rolex - Explore I 114270
Blancpain FF 5015

One aspect that I quite frankly find disappointing about Breitling Ti watches is the lack of surface treatment to minimize scratches/scuffs on the metal. Don't get me wrong, I have been closely contemplating a new Aerospace, but for $3,600 sticker, I would have expect that this ultimate "tool" watch would have some sort of treated titanium to further justify its high admission cost.

I have owned Japan domestic market Ti Citizens with Duratect and DLC (Diamond Like Carbon) and that stuff is simply amazing. Not 100% bulletproof, mind you, if you are stupid enough you can still manage to put a dent or gauge in the case/bracelet, but otherwise, it is very difficult to put everyday signs of wear on those watches. Clasp desk diving marks are a thing of the past. These are Citizens that retail between $800-$1,200. In the Vickers scale, a Duratect and/or DLC treated Citizen is in the 1,000-1,400 hardness scale, meanwhile, an untreated Breitling Ti is only in the 100-200 range.

I don't understand why Breitling doesn't appear to be interested in adding some sort of scratch resistant coating to their Ti watches (and steel ones for that matter).

Scratching your TI Seawolf is the least of your worries on that particular model. Marks can be easily touched up with a grey scotchbrite pad.

The problem with this watch is the crown. It is VERY prone to stripping out and it costs A LOT of money to get it fixed.

The watch has a TI midcase that sits inside the main case. This mid case is what the crown screws into. Titanium doesn't like being threaded and it doesn't like having a titanium crown screwed down on it. When the midcase fails, it has to be completely replaced and the watch serviced. Cost $705 to fix. Two years later, it stripped out again. I babied that crown, hardly ever worked it and never torqued it down. Stripped out again anyway.

I heard from an AD that the Seawolf and Crono Avengers all had this problem and played a role in the TI models being switched to steel. That and the fact that TI is a PITA to work with and it is a LOUSY seller next to steel.

I doubt you will see another TI model from Breitling in the future and I question the lifespan on the Aerospace. Based on that I find it highly unlikely that Breitling will address the grade of TI they use, or coat it with Duratect etc..

So my advice if you keep the Seawolf is to be real careful with that crown..