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Nope, the 312 is in house at $7400

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Justin
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And that's just one of the reasons why the 312 appeals to me so much.

what's with sudden in-house craze? that might be more important in other brands but panerai didn't even have an in-house movement until a few years back so i don't think the IH thing is that important here. the 111 is a classic pam in its own right and i prolly would go with a handwind over an auto when it comes to pam.

Does it have something to do with Nicolas Hayek wanting to stop selling ETA movements to other companies?



I couldn't agree more.

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"Leave the gun, take the cannoli."

Depends what you're looking for. Personally what's inside has become a lot more important for me over the last year or so - Panerai or not. I also think that the fact that Panerai didn't have their own movement until fairly recently makes it more significant, not less so..... (assuming that an in-house is important to you in the first place!)


I agree it's a classic look, but these days I personally shy-away at the thought of paying Panerai-money for something with the same base movement as something like a Steinhart. For me a PAM 233 (while costing more than a 111) represents considerably better value when it comes to handwound Panerais.

But as I say, it all depends on whether what's inside is important to you. For some it is ; for others it isn't.

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Driver8

Site Moderator

hey driver don't get me wrong...most of the time i'll go in-house before generic, but i do make an exception with panerai. it's not like the brand was built on great horology...mostly it's been design, image, and the illusion of exclusivity. they outsourced their early movements to rolex, one of their most popular modern piece (190) is powered by JLC, their most recent iconic pieces (127/249) is about as generic as it gets movement-wise.

they did get it right with the 233 though, the movement is great and was one of the most accurate watches i've owned. it's already a classic imo but if you ask all the 233 owners they'd be ready and willing to trade up for a 127/217 se's. it does seem like panerai is paying more attention to their in-house movements and probably within a few years my argument will become moot as i feel they'll be rolling out mostly in-house pieces.

edit to add: in the same vein i really wish breitling would make a 100% in-house navitimer already so i can fully get behind the brand

Can't argue with any of that, and especially the bit in blue. However I personally would always rather have an in-house (even Panerai) if it's at all an affordable option. But then again while I really like Panerai, I'm not a dyed-in-the-wool 'Risti, so what the hell do I know!

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Driver8

Site Moderator

I'll take exception to most of what you said. While the "brand" has become very popular over the last decade with everyday guys like us, the watches have always been known for reliability under the most strenuous conditions. Additionally, unlike Rolex, IWC, Breitling, etc., they don't keep making the same watch model until all demand dries up. I don't believe there is any "illusion of exclusivity." Panerai is upfront about how many pieces of a certain model will be made and poof - that's it - when they're gone, they're gone. They're tough to get for everyone. I'm sure that adds to their image and the "illusion of exclusivity" that you speak of - but they are all limited pieces.

For me personally, I love the timeless look of Panerai, I love the history behind the brand, and I like its unique and refined combination of elegance and ruggedness...I like the fact that I own a timepiece that very few other people own (or even know what it is) and it's able to pull off what many other brands struggle to on an ongoing basis.

Watch nerds like us can be discerning - but I like the fact that "everyday" guys have no idea what kind of treasure I actually have on my wrist.

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PAM359, Omega PO Big Size, 1951 Omega Seamaster, Rolex Sea Dweller

reliability is based on the movement, and until a few years back they were outsourced. exclusivity is based on supply and demand, and imo the supply right now more than meets the demand (maybe it was different 5-6 years back when there were less models). i've been able to own 5 pams the last couple years (albeit 3 used), and if a schlub like me can get his hands on 5 then there's plenty to go around. believe it or not some people still can't stand the sight of a panerai (roff notwithstanding )

don't take me wrong, i'm a big fan of the brand. wearing a zero as we speak, just some imo's.

First of all, I just want to say that like Panerai watches a lot and I respect the position they've created for themselves in the market, and I also think their in-house movements are excellent and demonstrate a level of innovation that is often missing from other brands, but I don't think cxbxax is being derogatory to Panerai at all by saying that that they weren't built on a tradition of haute horlogerie. Their history is not like companies like Breguet, or Patek, or JLC where guys in white coats have been constructing highly sophisticated and innovative movements for the last two hundred years. No, Panerai started off by building rugged cases to house reliable movements that were entirely made by someone else. And there's nothing wrong with that at all : it's just not the same starting point as a number of other high-end brands. Obviously they are now moving into the world of in-house movements (and quite interesting ones at that!), but as a brand they don't originally come from a point of haute horlogerie.

IMO their journey up the "luxury watch charts" has been carefully developed and nutured by a combination of creating (and sticking to) an iconic look (essentially they make just 3 case types, and of those, the 1950 and Luminor are extremely similar), coupled with a limited supply to generate desirability and create exclusivity. People always want what they can't have. Would the 339 be quite so popular if every dealer in the land had a couple in stock all the time? Maybe, maybe not...... but there's nothing like an extremely limited number to get fans whipped up into a feeding frenzy.

I accept the iconic simplicity of the 111 and 000 etc, but IMO it's only recently with the creation of their excellent in-house movements that they are really justifying both the prices they command and their position.

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Driver8

Site Moderator

I think that Panerai took the only approach they could do build a commercially accessible brand. If you go the haute horlogerie route then you may end up like Roger Dubuis and gain (realtively fast) recognition. However you are much likely to end up like one of my favourite watchmakers - Antoine Preziuso (who most people have never heard of) - a maker of exceptional movements who makes a very fine living by selling less than 100 pieces a year for very high prices.

Panerai took the design first approach that we typically see from new brands with more accessible watches - at the $1,000 or so price point, but tweaked that with some artificial exclusivity by limiting production of specific pieces. That they have now decided to invest their financial success into becoming a manufacture is something that I think that they should be applauded for, that they are compared with brands that have been around for hundreds of years is nothing short of remarkable.

First of all, you live in Southern California and Panerai only has two boutiques in the entire U.S. - one being just a few miles away from you. Secondly, there is a large market for Panerais in your neck of the woods as well - so of course it's going to be easier for you to get your hands on one. Third, I don't think getting your hands on a used watch (especially one that's been released within the last 5-10 years) is any great feat...and I say that with all due respect.

As Roff just mentioned, I think it's incredible that Panerai has been able to craft an image over the last 10-15 years that has taken other watchmakers hundreds of years to perfect - and the fact that Panerai has exceeded many of those brands in brand liquidity is amazing.

I live in Chicago - a very large city, some folks have lots of money here, and I had to go through the Beverly Hills boutique to get my PAM. I think the whole time I've lived here, I've only seen 2 other people wearing PAMs. I imagine that half of it is not as many people are familiar with the brand and the other half is that they are a pain in the butt to get.

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PAM359, Omega PO Big Size, 1951 Omega Seamaster, Rolex Sea Dweller

I think Panerai is well aware of what the demand for their watches is, and I have zero doubt in my mind that they work very hard to manufacture just short of the demand. Sure, there arent enough to go around for EVERYONE, but unless you are talking about an extremely limited model, you should be able to get one. If demand for the 111 doubled, I can guarantee that the production would increase to 5000 or so, which will get them as many sales as they can get while still keeping some people out in the cold. If there was demand for a boutique in Chicago, there would be one there. A boutique is a huge investment, more than likely costing tens of millions of dollars, and if it would bring the earnings/exclusivity to a good place for them they would do it. If the brand continues to grow the way it has the past few years, production numbers will continue to go up, and boutiques will continue to open up.

I think theyve done a great job for themselves over the years, but they arent fooling me when it comes to why their watches are exclusive.

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-RJ

I guess I am confused somewhat. Not that the below matters at all really.

After initiating this post, I have been researching Panerai and read postings on numerous other forums I found that Panerai is a brand that was basically saved by Sylvester Stallone (celebrity/ fashion brand?) in the mid 1990's. The company was pretty much non-existent (and made only three hundred watches for the Italian military) until it was bought by Richemont in the late 90's. So where has all the hype come from? As I see it, there is not much history behind the recent buyout of the name (maybe 15 years or so)? Yes the original name "Panerai" did exist, but was military issue and limited to only 300 or so watches. It seems the company bottomed out and pretty much disappeared until bought out in 1997. Are these remakes (retro) of the original military watches?

I am not saying they are bad watches at all (beautiful actually). They are well-made timepieces and extremely durable. However, I was shocked to find out about the scattered history.

I guess I am just confused because I thought the brand represented a horological history dating over 100 years. Will this determine whether I buy a PAM...probably not because I love the look and simplicity (yet intriguing) look. But dang...the prices are very high for a "newer brand."

Am I wrong? Help me here. Again, I am not badgering Panerai.

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