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 Post subject: Re: Navitimer 806 AOPA
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 11:27 am 
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I came across this recently, this is the earliest ref to the Navitimer I've seen. It comes from "La Suisse Horlogere" December 1955. Does anyone have any adverts or articles that pre-date this?
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NavitimerAd_1_2.jpg
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NavitimerAd_CU_2.jpg


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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 8:49 pm 
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Bill in Sacramento wrote:
Sorry to see you go, Tom, you're the best internet image hunter around.


Thanks for the backhanded compliment, Bill.
See ya.
T.


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 Post subject: Re: Navitimer 806 AOPA
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 10:46 pm 
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No offense to anyone but right when I opened this thread I thought :argue:

I'm just going to sit back and :popcorn: 8)

By the way these new smilies are fun to use~

_________________
"I don't got the bright watch I got the right watch" -Jay Z


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 Post subject: Twisting more threads.
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 10:47 pm 
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Tom, I'm sorry you took it that way. I was not trying to slip in a dig of any sort. I am truly envious of your ability to find images of the details or examples you are looking for. I don't know whether it is greater persistence on your part (I give up after a few pages of looking) or whether you have a better way to choose the search terms in a search string. It's just a fact that you have consistently shown images as examples of things I had not seen before. What I or someone else makes of each example might be another thread, but it is really valuable to be able to find relevant images among the bizillions out on the internet.

Chris, thanks for getting, sharing, and translating that document from Breitling. It's quite a new and valuable bit of information. In a previous thread, I was surmising that Breitling AG was getting more interested in the vintage pieces as they are more actively absorbing [is "ab-Borging" a word yet?] the history of the original company. If that is true, then maybe we can hold out a small ray of hope that they stumble across more stray records about the Navigation Timer. As it is, it seems nothing more than a big tease and I admit to being aroused.

Yaffle, I think 1955 is the first year I have seen advertising copy on the Navitimer, and my stack of Journal Suisse d'Horogerie is the best reference for that. I also came across an 1956 Italian radio programming guide magazine with our favorite yellow ad featuring the airplane logos (sorry, it's way too big for my scanner). So it wasn't just marketed it the US through AOPA. I think you've seen the early AOPA brochure. It's undated, so I think we have to consider it, well, undated. I lean to it being from 1955 or later, since it lists Wakmann as the official US Breitling distributor. I think Kurt tends to think it's earlier since it seems to show a Valjoux 72 movement pusher arrangement, but I think advertising images tended to get used for many years. It may well be that Wakmann was the service agent for Breitling even while the movements were marked "BOW."

Image


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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2010 4:57 am 
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Bill in Sacramento wrote:
I think you've seen the early AOPA brochure. It's undated, so I think we have to consider it, well, undated. I lean to it being from 1955 or later, since it lists Wakmann as the official US Breitling distributor. I think Kurt tends to think it's earlier since it seems to show a Valjoux 72 movement pusher arrangement, but I think advertising images tended to get used for many years. It may well be that Wakmann was the service agent for Breitling even while the movements were marked "BOW."



I don't see how that brochure could be earlier than 1955, it says on the front page "More than 1,000 AOPA members have pucrchased this unique instrument". Given that the formal AOPA connection didn't start until 1954 (I think that there is agreement on that point) it seems inconceivable that it would be earlier.

Of course, if it was, well, that makes for some interesting conclusions doesn't it :lol:





On some related topics.......

@Tom, please hang around - the value of your insight is in no way diminshed by the egos of others and whether it's here or somewhere else, the only way that we will make progress in discovering the truth is to get past those with closed minds


@Alex - not particularly surprised, but notice some incredible similarity in the IP addresses that you use and the ones used by a former member who knows that multiple used IDs are against the rules. Care to comment??


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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2010 5:54 am 
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The blow of the Navitimer in the December JSH ad is additional interesting because it does appear to be a Valjoux-movement version and the dial does not have the AOPA logo.

I'd like to meet the model.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:51 am 
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Bill in Sacramento wrote:

And, I see that Norbert/Michael/Herbert/Alex is back.

A twisted thread, indeed.


Yeah, it's really a shame that he don't understand the message, but at least he can't use the Forum to promote his sales anymore, as "officially" nobody knows (though the majority do know)who is behind alexmedwejew.


Kurt B


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:59 am 
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Kurt B wrote:
Bill in Sacramento wrote:

And, I see that Norbert/Michael/Herbert/Alex is back.

A twisted thread, indeed.


Yeah, it's really a shame that he don't understand the message, but at least he can't use the Forum to promote his sales anymore, as "officially" nobody knows (though the majority do know)who is behind alexmedwejew.


Kurt B



There`s easy logical proof that it`s "him": He never answered when addressed directly, neither objects nor denies our assumption.

Julius


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 Post subject: Re: Navitimer 806 AOPA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:24 am 
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Gentlemen,

I am aware of the opinions and have asked some questions via PM (responded to). I continue to monitor but will not act on supposition.


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 Post subject: Re: Navitimer 806 AOPA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:27 am 
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Here’s the letter from Breitling, where they state that the first Navitimer became available to the public in 1954, and where they confirm that the 1953 serial numbers are wrong, they are from 1958 but with 1953 case backs.

Chris was kind enough to give me the letter, thanks for the good work Chris, and thanks for letting me have the letter.


/ Kurt B

Chris K wrote:
Roffensian wrote:
I don't think that there will ever be a definitive answer.

Breitling are clearly sticking to the 1952 story - just look at The Book. Until someone can find a 1952 806 that no one disputes we will always be speculating - and I suspect that it will be impossible to find a 1952 that everyone agrees on - just look at the debate when a '1953' shows up.

In front of me is a letter of Breitling, dated Grenchen May 11th, 2010, with following information (in German):

a) Our cooperation with AOPA started only in the year 1954.
b) 1958 presumably a series of Navitimers was produced which was equipped with back covers from the year 1953. Therefore it can occur that a Navitimer with a dial from 1958 has a serial number from 1953.
c) Before 1954 the watch was produced as small series "Government Issue" and it was named Navigation Timer. Hence the name Navitimer, registered in 1955.

As soon as I can use my scanner again I shall submit a copy of this letter.

Chris


Image


Last edited by Kurt B on Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Navitimer 806 AOPA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:27 am 
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Interesting.

They are still maintaining that Navitimers (or Navigation Timers) were produced from 1952 though if my German isn't too rusty - the same as in 'The Book'.

I think that this is the first time that they have admitted to a serial number issue between 1953 / 1958.


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 Post subject: Re: Navitimer 806 AOPA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:50 am 
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Thanks Kurt and Chris,


I´m happy with the current knowledge status quo, because for me the `54 version has been concluselively justified, last but not least by the Breitling letter.

If somebody shows up with serious! evidence or new reliable! information to proof something else, I´ll be glad to be the first to accept. But considering all the information we have I think that`s

pretty unlikely.


Cheers, Julius


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 Post subject: Re: Navitimer 806 AOPA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:37 pm 
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nice children's story - and Santa Claus comes to the Easter Bunny
Image


And what is about the Breitling shock in the 1953th Navitimer ? Is it also wrong in the 1953th Navitimer ?
ImageImage


Everybody here knows that the first Navitimer was that of 1952/53, with Venus 178 without incabloc and with Breitling shock and serial number 824xxx.

The size of the case of the Navitimers where made from begin for a Venus 178 14''' , not for a 13''' Valjoux 72 calibre


Quote:
".... daß ein Navitimer aus 1958, eine Seriennummer von 1953 hat. " :lol: :lol: :lol: :strummin: :santa:


serial numbers 1953: 817916-832126

serial numbers 1958: 898830-910504
Quote:
The man responsible for the serial number stamping machine must have drunk more than he could stand and the next morning


Not only 1959, also in 2010 :idea: :idea:


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 Post subject: Re: Navitimer 806 AOPA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:13 pm 
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Well I have no idea what most of that post was about, but.......

alexmedwejew wrote:
Everybody here knows that the first Navitimer was that of 1952/53


Actually, no one "knows" that. We have all had opinions, but this is the closest that I have ever seen to anything definitive - do I still have questions - sure, but it's more evidence than we have seen before. The vast majority of people here maintain an open mind - while we all have thoughts on when the first Navitimers appear we are not so arrogant that we don't consider other options.

As you have been seeing recently, posts from people who are closed minded are just completely ignored (something which I probably should have done to this post).


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 Post subject: Re: Navitimer 806 AOPA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:54 pm 
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Hi Phantom,


if you didn`t notice : Nobody wants to play with you !

It`s just the same as at your own "i-am-spamming! monologue site", where you practice your mental masturbation: You put up a post and then give comments and answers to yourself.

That`s nice and easy and without objection, just as you like it.

The reason why you are still allowed to write here, is because Roff is obviously a polite person and in your case a very, very patient moderator !


Julius


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