The Breitling Watch Source Forums

Sorry mate, but that’s ridiculous. First, design doesn’t exist in a vacuum, separate from the quality of materials and workmanship in producing the piece. Secondly, you show me a $10 watch which looks and feels anywhere near as cool as a Navi, Chronomat, whatever, and I’ll take you seriously. There isn’t anything arbitrary about the understated elegance of a Blackbird or the sparkle of a GT dial in the morning Sun.

I think that’s awfully presumptive.

Moreover, I think if you reflect on it for a few moments, you will realise that ultimately, notwithstanding any interest you may have in the mechanics, history, brand image etc., the core reason why you like Breitlings is because they look cool.

That’s the core reason for anyone liking any watch really. Sure, there are all sorts of other influences, but if the watch doesn’t look cool – like a $10 watch – then none of that other stuff matters.

So good on the teenyboppers with their Galactics!

Thanks Carlos - great insight as ever.

I love the Zeppelin / Sabbath analogy, espcially as I am a closet metalhead (NWOBHM is a bit more my thing).

I think that there is certainly an element of wanting Breitling to become what I think that they are capable of. I don't think that I am that blinkered though - Breitling represents probably 50% of my collection these days - still a lot obviously, although the percentage is going down - and because I am one of those weird freaks that can't sell a piece once I have bought it there will always be a fair number of Breitlings in the collection, even if I never buy another.

I have tried to be objective in the post, but obviously when you are as closely aligned with a brand as I clearly am objectivity can be hard to identify and adhere to.

Hey Carlos,

I will conceed that appearance is a part of the reason why I have choosen Breitling over and over again.... but not the only reason. Some is their tie to air and sea, part is the fact that a lot of thier models are truely functional. The point I was trying to make was that with appearance as the only draw to the brand... the first time watch buyer MAY not have the loyalty to the brand that has sustained it all these years. Dont get me wrong, just becuase I find Breitlings latest offerings extremely hideous doesnt mean that I cant see a reason why someone wouldnt like to buy one. I do, however, think it is telling when a large number of WIS do not care for the new models/designs.

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Breitling Steelfish(black)
Breitling Steelfish(silver)
Panerai PAM 312
Bell & Ross BR03-92 Phantom
Steinhart BreitlingSource LE #5/15

My point -- which was raised in response to comments that Breitling's most recent "watch design" direction is negative -- was that the perception of image of the "BREITLING" brand in the marketplace is MUCH more than just the actual "design" of the watch.

The history, the marketing, John Travolta, the quality of mfr, the Breitling aircrafts & space balloon, the (recent past) innovations such as the Emergency, etc. -- all contribute MUCH MORE than just the design -- such that imho Breitling can produce any new models, and will sell them regardless, based on the "BREITLING" branding alone (assuming they are keeping up with their branding campaign & budget).

I do agree that design is integral to material and workmanship. But again, the discussion was about design directions WITHIN Breitling -- so material & workmanship, as well as marketing, distribution, etc can all be given as being equal. When the differentiating factor is then simply "watch design" directions of the most recent Besel -- I stand by my point that by itself, it's NOT going to make or break Breitling sale for the year.

Brands like Corum which produces such a variety of designs, have similarly demonstrated my point about "arbitrary" (for lack of a better term) watch design for an established brand, I feel.

As far as $10 watches, I'm betting you haven't looked at many of those recently. Here in Asia where there are revolving display racks of it in every corner space of every mall, you can't help but be intrigued by the incredible variety of designs available (albeit many if not most probably started out as a knock-off of some legitimate brands' designs...).

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Sorry for the really long time to reply...been too busy to write. I've been following this thread with fascination, though. I understand your point now. Just to expound on it, I think that the challenge for Breitling will be to offer some of the complications at "practical" costs...like current Aeromarine prices, at least on some of them. This won't happen overnight, but on a 5-year time span, if Breitling can up production of in-house movements maybe they could accomplish this. (Let me just say I would be the first person in line for an Avenger with a B01 in it). Sure, it may be hard to do, but that is the Breitling heritage. If it was easy, everyone would do it.

I guess I also classify as a Breitling nut. I own 6 luxury watches, and 4 of them are Breitlings. The next 1 or 2 I buy probably won't be, but that doesn't stop my lusting after at least 4 different other Breitling models that I want to own someday. Breitling was my first (and second and third) luxury watch purchase because they had such great look and such fantastic build quality for the money. IMHO, few brands match the quality and durability of the Aeromarine line at that price point. There is just no comparison. Even the Windrider line is tough to beat at its price point.

Although we may have heated debates that focus on the negatives, it pays to remember that we are really here because of positives: we think there is something special inherent to the brand, and we want to see that continue to be perpetuated as the brand and the watch industry evolves. I believe this is where Roff is coming from.

And let me say, Roff, that nothing you has said in this thread has struck me as arrogant. I think it is evident that you actually go through great pains to not seem that way...which I'm sure is hard when you know it all.


Sure, we need to know more in order to predict what would specifically happen in your pricing scenario (and my example was one of many possibilities), but I still stand my my assertion that you can't get something for nothing. So my example was based on a certain price-demand curve. However, let's assume that demand does not depend on price. Then you can assume that the margin that an AD gets now is really the margin an AD needs to survive (economics would say that if the margin was more than an AD needs to survive, then more ADs would come into existence until last new AD was balanced perfectly at the threshold of survival). If you reduce the margin, then you put ADs out of business. Maybe that would be good for Breitling, I dunno, you could probably argue that, but the point is that there would be consequences. You can make other assumptions about price, demand, average discount, etc, but I think they would all lead to something happening. Just sayin', is all....

As far as whether $8 million is enough for research, it seems a lot to me. Let's say it costs $100k per year to employ somebody on an R&D team. You can employ 10 people for 5 years and have a $5 million equipment budget. That seems pretty substantial to me (Sure, maybe the people cost more than $100k, but then you just have a slightly smaller equipment budget). We aren't designing a new aircraft engine, just a few complications to watch movements. I gather the challenge to watch movements is that they take time to develop, but a relatively small number of people.

///M

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There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." --Dave Barry

Just a couple of points to that last post.....

The $8,000,000 is actually $8,000,000 per year - so the R&D actually works out a little better than your example.

The AD model isn't necessarily controlled by market demand, it's artificially maintained by Breitling authorising retailers - you can't just becoem a Breitling AD. I'm sure that there are guidelines about market coverage, and there are definitely requirements about sales volumes, and that's a balance that can be tough to maintain. Do you put a new AD in place where sales volumes may be difficult to sustain in order to prevent potential customers having to travel excessive distances to reach an AD. Not sure how that is handled, and it's more of an issue in places like the US where geographic distances are great and population density is fairly distributed. I do think that there are too many ADs in many parts of the world - just look at teh grey market business, but I understand why that occurs.

In terms of complications becoming mainstream, that has to happen eventually with more 'normal' complications. It's no different from any other industry - cars have been used a few times as comparisons, and advances in technology that first appear in the Mercedes E class or similar often become standard in many cars within 10 years. You have to assume that the Aeromarine range will be the last to move in house from a value standpoint, and high end complications will never make it beyond ultra high end watches from any manufacturer, but things like retrogrades or regulators can easily fit in that price range (though regulators may not match the image of the Aeromarine range). I also think that an alarm would fit well with watches in that range - although price would inevitably be compromised. Perhaps most intriguingly would be a non horological complication - I think that a Seawolf (or similar) with a depth gauge would be a popular piece at the right price point.

OH YEAH! NOW YOU'RE TALKING!!

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Yep, a great idea Roff, and it has a great precedent in the Emergency transmitter. True functionality worthy of the slogan "instruments for professionals."

I'm really enjoying this thread, thanks everyone.

Peace

Mike

Duh! One of these days I will learn to read. I am not sure where I got the 10 year time frame from.


Exactly. You could also have, say, a GMT chrono with a quick-set hour hand for the frequent traveler. Simple (hopefully low cost) yet practical complications. The B01 is a step in the right direction: it gets rid of the little annoying quirks of the 7750, extends power reserve, all at a modest price premium. Let's just hope they keep building on this success and going in the right direction.

///M

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There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." --Dave Barry

roff!!! well done ....well said..!!! man u rock.!!!!!!