The Breitling Watch Source Forums

I just want to try and address some of the cost concerns here, because maybe the numbers aren't asbad as people think. Before I do though, a couple of comments......

1) Before I started my diatribe I said that I wanted to make Breitling sit up and take notice, and I make no apology for that. I also said that it was just my perspective - I specifically said that I wasn't trying to speak for anyone else or for BreitlingSource.

2) Me stating my opinions is no more self serving than anyone else stating their opinion.

3) I really do wish people would consider my post in it's entirety. I spent a lot more time and words speaking about pieces that aren't ultra high complications.




Now......

In 2008 Breitling submitted 290,245 watches to the COSC for certification. That's as close to sales figures as we are going to get out of Breitling.

2009 numbers will be lower because of the economy - let's say 200,000.

Let's also assume a recovery and that the average over the next 5 years is 250,000 pieces per year - I think that's reasonable.

Now let's also assume that an average of 200,000 of those will be existing pieces - if Breitling took every one of my suggestions to heart then it would still take time to develop them.

Now, if the retail price of every model were to increase by $100 to pay for future investment, by the time the retailer and distributor take their cut, then that $100 across 200,000 existing units would translate to $8,000,000 per year of additional revenue for Breitling to invest in new models - and that ignores any revenue that those pieces would generate.

Personally, I don't think that $100 would change the demand curve substantially, and I'm not sure that many of us would be unable to afford a Breitling if the price were to increase by $100.

This is simplistic - no cost of capital calculations, no allowance for timing, etc, but the numbers do get up there pretty quickly.

I simply don't know whether a move upmarket has to mean a move out of current entry level, any more than anyone else does, but I have a hard time believing that it is an inevitability.

I would also point out that I have specifically stated on several occasions that I would like to see a brand expansion, not a move upmarket at the expense of the current pieces.

Maybe that's naive, I don't know.

$8,000,000 per year?? What is that going to do? They probably spend more than that on their cleaning staff. To produce the pieces that you're asking for will take a lot more than 8mil/year. Maybe they can produce a digital calculator watch on $8million / year. R&D and production costs will be enormous!!! Then factor in marketing costs...fahgedaboutit. It would be foolish to think that we would only see a $100 increase in retail prices. These high end pieces are for a niche market and even with their high price tag they wouldn't bring in much revenue.

Breitling has been making watches for 125+ years, why the sudden need to move upmarket for long term sustainability? I don't buy it. Design changes? YES. Reduction in lineup? YES. Give us something new to get excited about? YES. Move up market with high end high price pieces? NO!!!

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"I don't own any watches, I just lease them"

they need to produce 2 or 3 pieces in the $8000Usd to $15000Usd price range. Maintaining the Breitling Styling but giving us some extra functionality. If the company wants to go higher then its a limited market, but maybe necessary to improve brand image, but I believe having 2 or 3 watches in the $8k Us-15k Usd price range is imperative.

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Breitling Chronomat BO1 Riviera Blue Dial Stainless Steel Case and Pilot Bracelet

What about manual wound watch? In the panerai forums, seemed that there are a large group of WIS that would ONLY consider manual wound watches. That seemed an easy way to generate the perception of "class" without necessarily large upfront investment?

The other thing I would love to see is some kind of skeleton Breitling. Price it at $8,888 and I think we'll see it sell like hotcakes!

As far as B01 movement inside Navis, I'm not sure that by itself is enough of a difference. For instance, I would not buy a Navi because I cannot live with the 30m WR (which supposedly you can't even take swimming??!! ). Historical, sure. But how does that fit into the modern Breitling image of "tool" or "for professional" watches??

Finally on a personal note, I really don't consider myself Roff's groupie -- I have a healthy amount of disagreement with his opinions (many in fact on points raised in this very thread). But it really bothers me that Roff needed to apologize. Especially since he did preface his 10K post with lots of disclaimers in the first place. It would be a shame if anyone, but especially Roff, needs to temper their intelligent opinions because of personal attacks.

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a few Pams...

I'd surely get one. I love manual-wound watches, e.g. Omega Speedmaster Pro, Breitling Montbrillant Edition, etc. I think Breitling should bring back manual-wound movements into the Montbrillant line.


I'm not sure about proper WR would be a requirement for pilots or astronauts And for divers or regular swimmers Breitling offers quite a few watches in the Aeromarine and Windrider lines. Of course a proper WR would have saved Scott Carpenter's watch that was flown in space and then ruined by the ocean So afterall, you're right: 100 meters WR would not hurt to have.

I think we've established that you don't agree with me.

I wasn't suggesting a budget of $8,000,000, I was saying that a retail increase of $100 would equate to approximately $8,000,000.

I'm not sure that responding to your posts further will advance this thread, so I'll refrain from further comment on your posts.

I thank you for and respect your opinions on my post, I son't respect your accusations on me. I disagree with your perspective, but as I have said, that's OK.

for those who are complaining about Breitling need to produce tourbillon, high end quality, etc, you maybe forgot this:

http://www.breitlingsource.com/watch_de ... ey_47.html



d

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Breitling Antares B10047
Breitling Chronomat B13050
Breitling Chronomat A13050.1 - pilot bracelet
Breitling Chronomat Blackbird A13050.1 - serie spéciale
Breitling Avenger Seawolf E17370
Breitling Chronomat EVO A13356 - pilot bracelet

I mentioned it in my original post.

It's not an in house piece - it's an ETA 2892-A2 based movement.

Was watching a movie with my kids where Hanna Montana appeared on Zack & Cody's Suite Life on Deck, and had a thought...

What if Breitling and say, Panerai did a LE TOGETHER??!!! The ones sold by Breitling would say "Breitling - Panerai", and the ones sold by Pam would say "Panerai - Breitling". (Of course could be any number of other independant mfr brands out there). But just think abt it for a sec... Wouldn't such a collaborative piece be UBBER KOOL???!!!

That'll show Swatch a thing or two! Also, the only brand I would leave off is the snobbish grandaddy, Rolex...

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a few Pams...

Damn...well said Roff...well said. I hope the "suits" at Breitling read this and take some action.

Carlos

ONe of the most interesting threads in a while.

I agree, I love Breitling, have wanted one or more for a long time. They need to come up with something a little more interesting, to me that would mean something on par with the Emergency when it came out. I think that watch is a good representation of the Breitling brand as an aviation/professional watch for people who actually rely on their instruments. My cosmonaute was bought not only because I thought it was a beautiful timepiece but also because it represented a line of watches that meant something more than just pretty. Same reason as why I like the ruggedness of the aeromarine line (especially in titatium). I have never looked to Breitling for a dress watch or for the shiny. That's just me, if I want a nice looking dress watch with multiple complications I would consider other lines if something in Breitling's arsenal didn't float my boat.

That being said I agree that Breitling new revamped offerings leave a little to be desired, but some intrigue me yet they seem to be losing a little of their branding.

I still think that as far as watch brands go Breitling will be my first love, and that is hard to let go of...so I won't...might need to explore my vintage options to satisfy my thirst.

First off, Roff great post

Second, it should have been a stickied, locked thread. (IMO)

Third, since it is here I wanted to add my 2 cents:

I will preface these comments by admitting that I am a Breitling nut, WIS for sure. The majority of my collection are Breitling and I am not done buying them. I do own several other brands and I do intend on purchasing a different brand for the next watch (pending no rock star deals on a LE Breitling.. or 2).

Now to the meat of the issue. The majority of the disagreement with Roff's viewpoint seems to be centered around the "what if" Breitling starts to make more complicated watches for the watch enthusiast... "well then I wont be able to afford them". I think a look at the current price list should remind the detractors that Breitling ALREADY has watches from the $1600 range to $25,000+.

What Roff, myself and A LOT of other WIS's are asking for is them to NOT reduce the brand to an even playing field along side the likes of Tag. I would rather that Breitling be known as "better than Rolex and as good as IWC, ect) Breitling, through some actual market research and not just spinning the big wheel of ideas, could retain the current "entry level and just above" models AND offer some models with features to rival JLC, IWC, Panerai and more. Let the market decide, from the sales, which ones sell better. And start to gain back some respect in the watch maker world.

I think Breitling's recent move to, appearently, attact a younger crowd may backfire. First, most consumers of the Galactic line will most likely be one time purchasers and most dont have any knowledge of watches in general. They just think they look cool. When the new wears off the watch gets dumped on eBay and the next fashion statement will be purchased. No repeat buyers and IMO the brand will suffer. Why in the world would a brand was known to be very well respected as "Instruments for Professionals" abandon their base and start targeting the fashion watch consumer? I dont want to ever see a day where the majority of the Brieting line can be bought for under $2000. It devalues the entire brand, but a more complicated model or two, would make the entire line more desireable overall and increase the value of all pieces.

Public perception of Breitling is going to suffer if they dont start making innovations, like they did in the past. These innovations arent going to be cheap, but they arent going to rob the bank either. Refering to Roff's explanation or an easy way to bring in another $8,000,000..... mfserge, you make a statement on how 8 mill isnt anything and how that amount wouldn't finance any R&D. I respectfully disagree. Can you imagine what a watchmaker like Dornblueth and Sohn could do with 8 mill in R&D? Ahh, how about an original automatic and an alarm and a moonphase... wouldn't be out of the question, would it? And it wouldnt take them but a few years, I would bet, to actual production. They are a small boutique type maker and Breitling has 1000 times the R&D resources... and yet they give us nothing more than every model being DLC'd and bezel changes to make Buck Roger fan's proud.

I love Brietling, but with the disappointment from the last few Bassel announcements, the less than impressive "new models" and thier unwillingness to bring innovation to the watch world. (the B01 doesnt count if they arent going use it).. well has my eye straying to other brands.

that is all......

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Breitling Steelfish(black)
Breitling Steelfish(silver)
Panerai PAM 312
Bell & Ross BR03-92 Phantom
Steinhart BreitlingSource LE #5/15

Hi Roff,I have not been around much lately. Just wanted to congratulate you on your 10,000th post! Amazing the amount of time and effort you put into reading the number of posts that you do. You also really pay attention, and really make a sincere effort to grasp what the writer is saying, or trying to say. It is an honour to get responses for you. The art of being a good "listener" is rare, and you have perfected it. I know that we are all thankful for the time and effort that you put in on Breitlingsource.com.
Although I don't post much here any more, this is really the forum where most of my interest and knowledge in watches started. It is still a wonderful forum, and it is always a pleasure to visit here. Nelson has created a wonderful space here, and I will always be grateful to both of you for the knowledge I have gained and the entertainment that has been provided to me here.
That really is an amazing post for 10,000! I will have to read it all over again - and maybe - again, to digest all of it.
All the very best.
Cheers,
Carl

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'63 Omega Seamaster, 2014 Omega Speedmaster MarkII

"Those who possess a sense of entitlement are seldom satisfied"

Wow! Great post and thread!

Wow – what a post!

I haven’t yet read the responses, so I will reserve my rights to follow up.

I basically agree with you, BUT, I’m not sure if:

a) it’s profitable for a brand to have such a market spread as your suggestion to go high end on limited editions contemplates; and
b) this is an economy which is receptive to more $20k+ (for discussion’s sake) watches.

For $20k+, I don’t reckon many people actually want a piece that says “Breitling”. They want it to say “JLC”, or if they have less taste, “Hublot”, or whatever. Of course, whether the $20k+ is spent tastefully or otherwise, the piece itself won’t say, like the proper Breitlings, “epitome of complex mechanical jet pilot gadget that you’ve wanted since you were a kid”.

And at the end of the day, when one considers the history of the brand, it’s important to remember that the predominant customer base wasn’t in the market for exclusive luxury items. That cool 67 Navi wasn’t purchased by some bloated spoiled brat in duty free in Dubai thanks to Daddy’s trust fund. It was bought by a pilot, or a geologist off to explore an oil play in the South American jungle…or…OK I’m succumbing to a myth, I know. However, Breitling used to be famous for being extremely well made complex instruments. Not luxury items per say. Sure, there has long been offerings in gold, but the brand was recognised as a maker of fine practical instruments.

Now, the next thing to consider is that even a serious WIS – say 20+ watches, and a Breitling nut – surely would see the plethora of watches out there and have at least half of the collection devoted to other brands. I can easily think of 10 awesome vintage/current Breitlings – all classics. For the other 10 – I want a VC, a BRM, hell … I want an Urwerk!

10,000 posts – you sure are dedicated! But I wonder if your approach is a bit like a super devoted
Led Zeppelin fan in 1972. You have all the rare bootleg albums, the posters, the same Les Paul guitar as Jimmy Page … but you just wish and pray that the next album will be heavier…that’s the sound you love … you write to the band …

When all along you just need to buy a Black Sabbath album!

The analogy works for me because watches, like music, invoke passion in people who know what they’re after. Breitling is the master of complex high-end mechanical chronographs – the style of watch I like the most. But I doubt the brand is meant to venture into the territory you contemplate. That be the domain of different players – and with so many amazing watches out there, to me, that’s cool.