The Breitling Watch Source Forums

Roff, that was a fantastic post. (Sorry for the late reply...have been traveling). You are a big part of what make this forum great, and I always appreciate the opportunity to read your missives here.

First off, let me say that I basically agree with you and most of what has been said so far. So I won't bother repeating that bit.

I also agree with one of Fiery's points, though, about Breiting's heritage being in the "Instruments for Professionals" concept. What distinguished Breitling in former half of the 20th century was their innovation for useful, practical, and robust designs that were easily regulated and repairable. I think a lot of the design elements that draw us to the brand now are embodiments of this philosophy. The build quality, robustness, and attention to detail is what makes Breitling such a compelling value at its price point.

However, although for most of Breitling's history their innovation has been to offer movements and other functionality that are not seen in other brands, Breitling has had little innovation in movements today. Sure, there are some great exceptions like the Emergency, the Seawolf Chrono, and they also did (I believe) contribute to the development of the ETA thermoline (i.e. "superquartz") line of movements. But what would be truly practical things to have in an automatic are instant date changes, quick-set hour changes for changing time zones, no worrying about when it's safe to set the date on your watch (thankfully the B01 does not have this problem), alarms, extended power reserves, power reserve indicators. Granted, the B01 does have some of these features, and it was clear that they were thinking along these lines when designing it. However, all of the thing I mentioned can be found in in-house movement of other brands. Blancpain, for example, has the Leman GMT Alarm which was specifically designed for travelers. They also have instant date changes on some of their models. JLC and other have quick-set hour hands. Or how about GO's Senator Chronometer that has a second hand that jumps to 0-seconds when the crown is pulled out and the minute hand jumps to the next minute marker (how cool is that?!). This is the kind of thing that Breitling should be incorporating, and perhaps coming up with new, innovative ideas.

These are also features that a non-WIS person would appreciate. Sure, moonphases, equations of time, tourbillons, rattrapantes, perpetual calendars, these are all things that WIS people go ga ga over (myself included ) but nobody else cares about. But to the average person I think that functionality like I described will still be a big hit. The B01 does go part of the way there, but I think they really should push the utility concept way further.

(Sorry...been dying to use that graphic...)

Furthermore, what about some innovation on the quartz front in the professional line. The Emergency is cool, but as a pilot, I have to say that the overall functionality of the timepiece itself is lacking. The co-pilot was an attempt to give the model and actual utility as a chronograph, but really the whole thing falls way short of what could be done for a genuinely useful modern pilot's watch. The Japanese are way ahead of Breitling when it comes to designing truly useful aviation watches by modern standards. Breitling, get a freakin' pilot on your design team and design a freakin' watch for an actual freakin' pilot (you certainly have enough pilots on your jet team).



In the spirit of fun debating, I have to respectfully disagree with you here. You can't get somethin' for nothin', and you cannot increase the distributors' prices without consequences. The reason that there are large discounts in the U.S. is that lower prices sell bigger volumes, and some ADs find it advantageous to go for the bigger volume. It's an economic force that I think you can't fight. You raise the price and volume will go down. When volume goes down, ADs need more margin to compensate, which means MSRP needs to go up, which means volume goes down even more, et cetera until a new stable price-volume relationship is established. Basic economics dictates that the average net amount of profit (Breitling's + distributor + AD) per watch is fixed for a given supply volume. If supply is held constant, you cannot increase Breitling's profits without reducing the distributor or AD profits. This is just another way of saying that you cannot create demand (i.e. money) out of nothing.

The only way for Breitling to affect AD pricing is to reduce supply, or to penalize ADs that sell too many watches. When the marginal cost to an AD of acquiring an additional watch becomes larger than the previous watch, then the AD finally has incentive for keeping prices high. This is the whole point behind limited editions. If each AD knows they can only ever get 1 LE, then they will not reduce the price on that. The problem is that Breiting rewards high-volume behavior and punishes low-volume behavior (if you can't have a certain number of Breitlings in your store, then you cannot be a Breitling AD). Therefore, there will always be an incentive for lowering profit margin to increase volume.

///M

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There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." --Dave Barry

I think a big part of moving to an inhouse movement is technological improvement and forcing a company to push the envelope. In reality of modern companies, if you are not moving forward then you are moving backwards. If you look at the racing industry, whether it be cars or motorcycles, the technology learned from pushing the envelope to stays at the top of the field is passed down to their respective street cars or motrorcylces. As watch companies push the envelope, they can learn new things and pass that technology on to their future watches...such as 70 hours resevrve and make them much better and lossibly more accurate.

Thanks for the great debate guys!

Mofongo, agree 100% on the complications needing to be relevant. I was trying to provide some examples rather than a comprehensive list. I do think that there are some 'must haves' for industry attention - tourbillons for example, and the esoteric complications get mainstream watch industry press coverage.

In terms of pricing and supply and demand, I think I need more information to be able to agree or disagree - the piece of data that we are missing is what the average discount is. On here we are all educated buyers and know what to ask for, but there will also be a large part of the buying public that walks in and pays retail. Without knowing what the average retail price is it's difficult to know how much demand will be impacted. There will be impact on ADs, and that could be problematic for some of the independents.

Roff, I enjoy reading about your insight and knowledge of watches and the watch industry but I think your last sentence was a tad bit pompous. That statement has now confused me as to your motives; are you genuinely interested in moving the brand forward or are you interested in self promotion?

Had someone else said that your post was recognized by Breitling I would have been fine with it, but to hear YOU say it is bothersome.

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"I don't own any watches, I just lease them"

Huh? I read that simply to mean that Breitling does monitor this post/thread (as in all 6 pages -- and counting.. ) and cares about what we say -- as they should, since many of us are multiple Breitling owners who cares enough about the brand to think and debate about it. It kinds of encourage me to continue to follow the discussion as opposed to "we're all wasting time, corporate won't care", ya know?

With 10,000+ posts on Breitlings, hard to imagine Roff's motives could still be unclear to anyone.

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a few Pams...

Well, you lost me there to be honest.

Let me clarify if it was unclear. I have been advised that others have made people at Breitling aware of this thread, and that some of the people who are now aware are senior level figures. I have also provided the information to a couple of contacts.

If that sounds pompous then my apologies.

As for my motives, well I can't stop you thinking whatever you will, but if as you suggest it is self promotion, what exactly would I be promoting myself for, what would be 'in it for me'?

If you genuinely think that my 10,000 posts have been leading up to this opportunity to push my own agenda then there likely isn't much that I can say to change your mind.

Wow. I take a few days off and look what hapens here!!!!
First off (original sentiment coming...) congrats to teh Professor on his milestone. The title is not one given tounge in cheek, but rather earned throught the tireless education of previous newbs like myself into true, unabashed WIS's. So thank you Professor, for all that you do and all you continue to do for us and for the brand that should pay you but does not, yet.
As to your points; I certainly agree in principle to most, if not all, of your points. I do fear, as others have expressed, that to introduce, develop and pursue these high end complications will almost certainly scale up the overall cost of the entire line. It is very hard to recoup significant R&D costs on very limited edition pieces without spreading that overhead around. Hence, a rising average price point. The "bang for the buck" has in the past been a big draw to a good bit of the Breitling line. That said, because of the observed trends that have been beaten to death in this thread and others, my next watch (not too far out-- couple months) will almost certainly NOT be a Breitling. That is hard for me. I really want to want one, but all of their new stuff, as gone over in much greater eloquence and clarity by the Professor, is unappealing. I find myself unwilling to purchase the unchanged models knowing what that money will go towards on the R&D front: more crap I dislike.
Long run for the short slide, I realize. In the end, I hope they are listening to you Roff, because you speak for a great many of us. Your concerns are echoed here and elsewhere. More importantly, I hope they are paying attention. If changes are not made in their direction and course, I regretfully will report that I am likely wearing the last Breitling I will ever buy, and that saddens me.
Long live the Professor!

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Chronomat, Steel/Gold, MOP Dial, 2-tone band (2008)
Super Avenger Black Baton Dial (2009)
Bentley B04 GMT Silver Dial (2013)
Avenger Blacksteel Baton Dial (2014)

What exactly is there in this thread for senior level executives to be aware of?? That a few people would like some high level complications and they think there is a need for these high end pieces to show that Breitling has trust and faith in their product? I think that's a bunch of bull.

I do feel that you used your 10,000th post as a forum to promote your own ideas which is certainly within your rights to do so. I'm bothered that you felt the need to keep us posted that Breitling is aware of your post, it just sounds cocky.

I hope Breitling doesn't decide to spend wastefully on unnecessary complications which will drive ALL of the prices higher causing many newbie watch lovers to be unable to afford their first Breitling. They would be better served to spend their resources on adding the in house movement into the Navitimer line, continuing to grow the B01 and Galatica brand, and major redesigns in the Bentley series. I'd prefer all of these things to get accomplished prior to Breitling even considering producing high end complications.

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"I don't own any watches, I just lease them"

Are you straying away from Breitling because you don't like the current design/look of the new models or because you are PO'd that Breitling doesn't offer a $50,000 tourbillon or a $50,000 watch that is made out of some special prescious metal?

I think it's important to make it clear why some of us are frustrated with Breitling. Frustrated with the new look or frustrated that they don't offer super high end pieces?

I am not a fan of the new designs but I'm not leaving the brand because they don't offer high end pieces for the super rich....I'm looking elsewhere because none of their new models grab my attention as in years past.

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"I don't own any watches, I just lease them"

I think that this is the third time that I am going to say this in this thread - we obviously feel differently, and that's OK.

If you feel that I am being arrogant, then for that I apologise - as I said in the post itself, it's not conscious if that's the case.

Some people have asked me to ensure that Breitling are aware, and they have asked me to keep them posted. I will attempt to do that in a humble and accurate way, and if that upsets you, then again I apologise. This thread is neither designed to anger you nor to promote whatever you feel my agenda to be.

mfserge - I Totally agree with what your saying about driving prices up. I personally couldn't ever see myself spending anymore than £5000 on a watch of ANY brand. I've looked at many brands over the past year or two but nothing catches my eye more than a Breitling, not sure why, maybe because they are in my price range, in fact that is probably why. So for me doing anything to push prices up would be a no no from me but then that would make me selfish.

As for your comments about Roff's agenda for his OP I have to totally disagree with that, he's a man who loves the brand enough to spend a great deal of time to think and write what he thinks, good luck to him!

Cheers

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Currently:
Avenger Skyland(Black)
Super Avenger(White)

Moved on:
Montbrillant Legende(Silver)
Panerai 312
SOHC 125th Ann. LE(Silver)
Navitimer World(Pearl)
Panerai 441

I would expect everyone to defend Roff as he's contributed a lot of valuable information for a lot of watch lovers. But I think his comments are detrimental to the company and a bit self serving. I love the brand as well, I own many Breitlings, and I don't want them to do things that will cause prices to increase any more than necessary. I would like to continue adding pieces to my collection over the years rather than move to a more affordable company. We'll just have to agree to disagree but I hope we don't see any more braggadocios comments about how executives are taking notice of his posts.

Do we really want the senior leadership team worrying about high end pieces for the wealthy? I DON’T! I would hope they have more important things to do like figuring out when to put the B01 movement into a Navitimer. Why isn't that being hotly debated on here??? That's our flagship model yet there’s no talk about when it will be in a Navi. Shouldn't that be the next step in our evolution rather than creating a high end, over overpriced piece, with extravagant precious metals?

If you're running a car company what is a bigger priority right now? Figuring out how to get your best engine, the hybrid, in every car in your lineup at an affordable price point? OR are you trying to develop a 600mph gas guzzling engine that will beat a Ferrari in a street race? Come on let's get real. Breitling isn't IWC, not Jaeger, not UN, they're Breitling and I love them for who they are and what they've been over the years. We can all agree that small design changes are necessary but developing a high end rage could be a financial disaster, or it could cause us, the customer, to foot the bill.

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"I don't own any watches, I just lease them"

Get real. Most people here are spending in excess of 5,000 USD on peices which are purely for personal enjoyment. If that's not the definition of "wealthy" I don't know what is.



This has been mentioned HUNDREDS of times. The Pre-basel thread mentioned at B01 movement in Navi about 50 times. Several members said they would plunk down money RIGHT now for said development. Instead, virtually nothing comes of substance from Basel this year.



The truth is, that all commodities start as specialties. The technology that makes hybrids widely available today was cutting edge science 10 years ago. Without the trailblazers to lead the way, there is stagnation. There is a (spare me the comparisons to Reagan) a "trickle down effect" that comes with reaching higher. Aspiring to haute horology keeps Breitling a specialty and a luxury, and not a commodity. Roff's view is from a long term perspective and one that will keep Breitling around for 100 more years. If Breitling insists on making the same mistakes and continue to make "evolutionary" changes, their band will suffer in the long term.

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“The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once.” - Albert Einstein

Breitling does need to more work on producing some watches which have some extra "features". I would personally be prepared to pay more for such a watch. Breitling in particular need to produce a few pieces (which are part of the normal offering in the $8,000USd-$15,000USd range) At that level, those of us who want to move upwards with the brand can do so!

There are some lines at the moment which have way to many models, some of the watches need to be rationalised. We need more quality and less quantity- within reason and understanding that Breitling does need to make profit. Just my opinion thats all!

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Breitling Chronomat BO1 Riviera Blue Dial Stainless Steel Case and Pilot Bracelet

I'm not putting words in Roffs mouth here, but I think his initial point wasn't to say that Breitling needs to offer mega expensive piece per se to raise the price point of the entire brand. The purpose of producing a few high end in-house complications is one of enhancing the companys reputation in the horological world. Being able to produce something high end and interesting in-house shows that a company is up there with the elite. The kudos and recognition that brings filters down into the lesser models and essentially raises the status of the brand. The pricing of the lower models can stay broadly the same as they are there to entice people to the brand. Once people are in, they undoubtedly aspire to own the higher end pieces, so the more expensive pieces give people "somewhere to go". Now obviously a HUGE amount depends on where Breitling wish to position themselves! If they want to compete with JLC, or IWC or Blancpain or higher, then they need to show that they can produce high end pieces in house. However if they want to compete at Tag level or just above, then they don't need to produce the high end piece that are being discussed at length here.

My take on that part of Roffs post was that, as a WIS and a Breitling fan, he'd like to see Breitling leave the likes of Tag far behind and compete with the big boys. And in that respect I agree with him. However it all depends on where the top guys at Breitling see the companys focus. The B01 would suggest a desire to move above Tag but the lack of any building upon that at Basel 2010 makes me wonder. However I think the B01 seems like a good foundation and let's not forget that jumping straight into a chronograph for a first in-house movement is quite a feat. Omega "only" managed the non-chrono 8500!

Additonally though I actually don't think that certain types of highend movement particularly fit in with the instruments for professionals ethos. For example I can't really see a minute repeater fitting in the range. I can however see how a mechanical alarm would fit in. Retrograde dials don't seem to fit (although they are cool!), but an equation of time would IMO. So while not every complication seems to fit in IMO, there are plenty that do and I for one would like to see them because I love Breitling watches and personally I'd like to see them compete at the highest level. But none of this matters a jot if the Breitling execs want to position Breitling as the next step up from Tag.

Anyway that's my opinion on high end Breitlings, and at the end of the day this forum is all about peoples opinion - nothing more, nothing less.

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Driver8

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