The Breitling Watch Source Forums

I have a general question on the future value of a luxury watch, though I think it's quite hard to provide a definite answer. Generally if a watch model is no longer in production, is the value of it supposed to increase or drop over the years? I understand that the value depends on demand and condition of the watch but what I am referring to is the general value of a model that whether it will go up or will actually drop the longer u keep it.

Brand like PP, Rolex and PAM has higher chances of going up in terms of value to my understanding. I believe that Breitling has one of the poorest value but will there be a chance that a Breitling can grow above it's original value overtime? I mean many many years later that we might not even have a chance to see it but our descendants does...

Yesterday I walked into a 2nd hand luxury watch shop and asked for the price of 2 pieces of the Sub(same model), one 3 years old and the other older. The younger was higher by about $1K than the older one. That set me thinking that if the age of the watch "reduces" it's value, and increased is the retail price of the model over the years, how does that make the general value of a luxury watch overall, as in does it actually go up or drops over the years? Or there is no general answer and really depends?

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Breitling Chronomat 01 Limited Edition
Breitling Navitimer 01 46mm

Hi Chronomat,

It depends on the actual watch. Some are seminal and some are highly desired by collectors. Keep in mind that if a watch is old, say more that 20 years, then only collectors in the main will want to desire them. That’s a generalisation of course, but also relevant to your question. There has to be demand for such timepieces and a 'knowing' that makes it desirable. Prices will rise, or at least stay constant, over the years because of it. Some go ballistic and some with good reason.

All consumer products get a higher price for new over the previous older versions. Makers usually move the game on with more features, better quality or a newer format that saves, or expands, or (insert promo here); and therefore the price is justified, supposedly. Correspondingly you feel happier buying the latest instead of an older version because of awareness and you are prepared to pay a premium to get it. No one craves a Betamax over Blu-Ray and the same goes for many other products out there as they have moved on over the years with a subliminal and perceived benefit.

The most cynical counter example of this is, anywhere you find something that is touted as superior over its previous versions but has no real benefit to justify a higher price, of for that matter, the models existence in the first place. That happens all too often. Costs do move on, but its relative.

Seminal is different, but still no real reason for higher prices later on. If it truly moved the game on or was fanatically cherished by owners, then chances are later on, it will attract a premium to get hold of even though it maybe rubbish compared to the latest model. A lot of emotions and reasonings happen when you decide to buy something that is old and expensive.

So, for me the rules are; Is it highly sort after and for what reasons? Does the price seem reasonable and why would you pay that much for it? Tick the boxes and speak to the wife for permisison before proceeeding..........

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Jim

"You have Control".

I do not have an expectation that any of my Breitlings will go up in value.
Even if they go up in Dollar terms, what will be the purchasing power of that Dollar then?
Taking a quick glance on this site at the price list of Breitling models around 15 years ago, a typical $3K model (head only) would at best fetch about the same today in a very good condition, with a good service history AND with original bracelet.
I'm sure however that most if not all of Fred's beautiful vintage pieces could fetch significantly more in Dollar figures today than the selling price back then. Again one needs to take inflation factor into account before we can talk about increase in value. Not to mention the fact that today's Breitling models are produced in significantly higher volumes than say 50 years ago.
In summary, no, I do not have any expectations that would be worth getting excited about.
In actual fact the way things are shaping out in the world these days, I'm afraid that most people in 50 years time will be more pre-occupied with what they put on their plate than what they put on their wrist.
That being the case, my Breitlings will be worthless

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"It is just a matter of time!"

As it turns out vintage Breitlings were good value 5 - 10 years ago, although of course no one had any way of knowing that. Today the opportunities for growth seem to be less, but who knows. I think that most of my vintage purchases have increased in real terms, and I certainly can't think of any heavy losses, and there is also the benefit from careful purchase of 'projects' that doesn't really exist with contemporary pieces.

With modern pieces, whether Breitling or most other brands, there are so many being produced that I see little opportunity for growth in the majority of them - supply and demand simply won't drive prices because supply will be plentiful for many years to come. Additionally, rare doesn't automatically mean valuable, I have a number of pieces from independent / small brands where the price I paid for a 6 - 12 month old piece is less than 30% of list price. Tough to believe that those are going to appreciate after such a rapid decline.

I have no intention of buying a watch with an expectation (or hope) of increase in value - unless it's a desirable PP reference, a super high end complication from a big name, etc there just isn't the opportunity. Even there the risk is huge - an example of the original JLC Gyrotourbillon sold at auction earlier this year for a little over $200,000 including the buyer's premium - so seller is only going to get less than $150,000 by the time the two sides of the commission are factored in. Not bad - but list price on that watch was $400,000!

Thks for the comprehensive input guys:) Greatly appreciate it...Ya I wouldn't buy a watch because of the "future potential value" or hope that I can make money out of it. The "value" that I was asking about is merely in terms of dollar and cents without factoring inflation into consideration. Of course if we factor in inflation as what Wessa mentioned then definitely it's highly unlikely to see an increase in the real value. It will be a nice feeling if we can see something that we own will increase in value, even if it's just dollar and cents increase... What Jim analyzed is quite true that in terms of demand, it might get lesser in the long term as the mass are looking more for later models instead of older ones, except for collectors. Luckily the horology world doesn't move that fast like technology.

Late last year which was a few weeks after I bought my Chronomat 01 LE in Switzerland, I saw the same model in an AD in my country and asked for the price. It was still the same retail price that I last knew. Recently I walked into the same AD and asked for the price again as it was still there, to my surprise the list price stated on the price tag had increased by about $100+. The retail prices for the non LE Chronomats were also slightly higher than I last knew. When asked why the sales staff told me that it was due to pre Basel World price adjustment which takes place every year. However as the increase was marginal, the sales guy still quoted me the same price after discount as a few mths ago before the price adjustment, so which means the "increase" was just simply for show. That made me happy still cos at least I see some virtual increase in dollar and cents and not make what I bought like a piece of junk that becomes totally worthless the minute I made my purchase back then.

Actually it would be nice if every watch brand can have at least 1 classic model...not just in a way of maintaining the design but offering exactly the same model for a very long time. Very good examples are Chanel and LV bags, where they launch new designs now and then but are always offering their most classic model, and moreover the prices of their classic models increase every year! Well that will be nice if we see someone buying the same as ours after sometime but paying much more than us...lol...Such strategy does drive many ladies rushing to buy the classics over the years, especially the more expensive ones like Chanel as they want to buy when it is still cheaper to get one now. However the bad part is that if they were to stop offering the classics one day I think the ladies can forget about selling their bags at a good price if they want, cos almost every lady would have one! Pros and cons but I personally do like such strategy because it gives the brand a "timeless image" IMO because for example when we say a watch is timeless looking it is just a mere subjective opinion on our part on the design but the piece is not really timeless since the fact that when it is no longer available means that it is already "out of style" and replaced by something "better"...maybe watch brands cannot adopt such strategies because of the movements in the watch that they are always trying to improve and enhance on? I like owning something that not many has, so that's why I got a LE(even though 2000 LE is not really that limited). But if Breitling has a classic model that they want to offer "forever" I will be happy to jump on one.

With regards to what Wessa mentioned about inflation, I do notice that new luxury watches seem to get more expensive over the years...my uncle got a new Chronomat Evolution for a much lower price than my Chronomat 01 LE many years ago...I believe the reason is due to inflation, increasing production costs like materials, employees salaries, etc, that causes the capital cost of new watches to increase. Maybe that's why sometimes we see the prices of new releases unjustified. This "symptom" set me thinking why the value of a luxury watch do not really increase generally.... I kinda conclude that a watch can rise in value if it is a well liked model and still in production, because of factors like inflation that drives the list price plus popular demand. But if produced for many years and suddenly discontinued, the value can drop plenty since there is no longer a list price to take reference from and solely depends on recent resale transactions, which there will be already many same pieces out there so can't really count on selling at a good price unless the demand is higher than the quantity offered. Yet again, as you guys mentioned, many many factors to be taken into consideration, so who knows?

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Breitling Chronomat 01 Limited Edition
Breitling Navitimer 01 46mm

here is a post that would not make me jump on your for. and to be honest i think its a valid question here.

in the case that you provided with the 2 rolex's there might be a few different reasons why the younger sub was more expensive. For example if you look at the 16610 LV and if you get a random serial number in this version they tend to sell for a premium. alot of it has to do with internet hype as to people speculating that its more rare.

i think that there are some rare instances of Breitlings that would grow in value. take the Breitling avenger Rattrapante for example http://www.breitlingsource.com/watch_de ... d_188.html its an LE of 25 pieces. I have never seen one in the metal or in the wild and never seen one for sale. If this was to come up somehow from a collector that owns it, I suspect it would command a premium.

For my experience with the 2 Subs I believe the higher premium was simply due to the age of the watch. Disregarding the condition of the watches, consumers in general definitely prefer a newer or "younger" piece.

Didn't know about the Sub C serial number case.... Oh btw I notice that Rolex has never offer limited editions before? Maybe they are trying to make some of their pieces "limited" in this way... Wow the things that they do are always so different and yet effective.

It's a little saddening to see that Breitling has not been able to provide a classic standardized image in their range. Maybe that's why their potential value is bad, except for a few rare models as mentioned. I understand that the only model Breitling managed to maintain for a long time is Navitimer. But however IMO there is no common "Breitling identity" among all the models. I mean there seems nothing in common between Navitimers, Chronomats, SO, SA, Bentley ranges, etc, that tells you that these are Breitlings. All these models have their own distinct features to identify their range but nothing in common as an overall brand. That's why there was a thread discussing on which Breitling watch most shouts "Breitling". I think I will be laughed at if I were to start a similar thread discussing which most shouts "Rolex", because all of them does! Look at brands that have better values(PP, PAM, Rolex), even though they have different ranges and models, all their watches always have a "distinct classic image in common" that identifies their brand. I think that is very important to a luxury brand that u need to have that "identity" in all your products, whether new or old...I think that greatly affects the future value of the brand's products. IMO Breitling is simply trying to increase market share by attracting different types of consumers with different ranges and designs, and they do not bother about the resale values of their watches since it doesn't concern them? But actually it should concern them because many take potential resale value into consideration when buying luxury watches.

All in all I don't understand how the myth of "buying watches as an investment" came about. And also the thread that I started a few mths back on the myth about people rushing to buy watches in Switzerland because it is the only place where you can get a 100% Swiss Made watch there. For all you know it is the tour guides who started all these myth! I do sincerely wish that all these myth will come true one day because as mentioned it is always nice to know that something you own has increased in value.

Lastly I have this question about the price of a luxury watch that is it true that the list price of the watch will increase every year when it is still in production? Cos I have not really researched on other watches' list prices. I think Sub C has increased in list price, not sure about overall luxury watches as I want to verify what the sales staff told me is true about the "pre Basel World" price adjustment. Or it depends?

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Breitling Chronomat 01 Limited Edition
Breitling Navitimer 01 46mm

Nothing much to add on my part, except I would like to add to Roff's comment on vintage B's.

I would have to agree that prices have steadily risen on vintage pieces and I've only been in the game for a little over four years. That's part of the reason why I got into vintage Breitlings and wristwatch collecting first because of their excellent value over their same era counterpart, such as Heuer. I'm sure if you ask some of the other vintage gurus like Vintage (Paul) he can attest to that. Not to mention to find pieces iin the right condition, as in all correct and original parts is getting harder to find. Might be that they are staying in private collections for the long haul.

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"I don't got the bright watch I got the right watch" -Jay Z

your sentiments are the exact reason why I started to get disillusioned with Breitling. When I first go into watches Breitling was the pinnacle of desire for me. Part of it had to do with size of the watches, a bit to do with pricing and the other part is I just felt overall they were a really cool brand. Like Jlee5050 I have only been into this watch scene for the past 4 years, so my knowledge on movements as well as history is very limited. So most of my choices for purchase are based on aesthetics as well as continuity of the brand.

This was one of the reasons that made me fall out of love with Breitling. I just kept getting the feeling that they were trying to be everything to everybody. There were a couple years of bad designs and let downs from them. Things like stupid rubber bezels, font changes etc.... But what really hammered the nail into the coffin for me is that I could not see myself owning most of these models and wearing them when i was 50. Things like the Super Avenger of B4B Motors T are great watches now in my early 30's. Yes they are a tad to big for me, but since I am younger I could probably get away with it. Not so much when im 50 and sitting around in a cardigan and slacks, at that time it would just look out of place. This was what drew me to brands like Rolex.

For the record I still like Breitling i think that they have some great pieces. The Navitimer is a great example as well as the chronomat evo that seem to scream Breitling and appeal to a ton of people myself included.

in terms of the pricing, the trend seems to be pricing will just keep going up. When I first for the 116610 LN list price was around 8000 its now 8500 and when i first got the 116610 LV list price was around 8900 its now 9500 (i think). Keep in mind these are CAD prices.

edit - i should also say that pricing for all brands seem to be trending up. not just Rolex.

Well, leaving the lines of the OP's question somewhat, I think there are two different notions of value in luxury goods. There's third party value, which is what a third party would want to pay for your good at any given time. Third party value could also be called market value and at the same time, is what lends your good its status (read: bragging rights). Then, there's personal value. Personal value can really be measured only by how happy owning the luxury item in question makes you. As I generally purchase to keep, I care much more about the latter and measure what I'm willing to pay for a given item by the expectation I have of it putting a smile on my face, be it when I drive my car around a mountain road or in the morning when I grab my watch on the nightstand. I'll probably not die as a rich man with that, but I might do so as a happy man. Whatever third party value will have increased by that - hopefully rather remote - point in time, will just be a nice surprise for whomever inherits my stuff.

Which is to say, just enjoy your watches, whatever they cost.

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Cheers from Switzerland,

Fred

There is so many good view points in this thread and would have to agree with most of them. I have noticed watch prices at my local AD that there is a yearly increase on most of the models sold. What I always found troublesome is that watches that been in the showroom window most of the year also get the increase in price! So to the unexpecting buyer they could be buying a version that was build prior to the one they are told about. So the manufacturers are increasing the prices so a watch that has an existing model in the market doesn't depreciate as much. Then again, as we move into the preowned and vintage watches there seemed to be the auction houses, speculators and people finding the value in them. Put them all together I see the perceived value falls into the mystique of the brand and model. I also see that the enthusiast and collector's income has some aspect on the price. I could be incorrect but the income of the buyers really factors in the price of things. So if everyone could by a Petek for the price of an invicta then it wouldn't be so sought-after. The availability of the watch also bring the collectibility and price up as well. This is where I think Breitling moving their models and prices up market will eventually command higher prices in the collector's market.

Good points Dempsey. I think there is some gouging that goes on though, as the sellers want to take it up to 11 as much as possible and get what the market will stand. If they can get away with it, then all is good for them. Of course, you are probably right in general terms that many collectors are able to buy because they have the disposable income to do so. I’m not sure if it’s the chicken and the egg though. To have some capacity to buy is a pre-requisite for buying what are essentially very expensive items (plastic digital watches aside). Not sure which comes first, but good watches have always drawn a larger wedge to buy.

The best thing about the comments here is that it makes members think about their attitude to watches and the reasons for the obsession! I mean, habit. Sorry, that should be passion. Passion.

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Jim

"You have Control".

No you're right... you're good... it's obsession...

at least for me.

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"I don't got the bright watch I got the right watch" -Jay Z

Today’s watches symbolize our evolution in art, fashion and technology

I agree that retail prices from watch makers keep going up and up and the market seems to accept it.
This is not however being reflected in the used watch market anywhere near to the same degree.
Just look at the for sale posts here or other forums or even on eBay for nearly new watches, still under manufacturers warranty and very well looked after.
Lots of BUMP, BUMP... Reduction, reduction... And eventually it is gone for what would look like silly money comparing to retail for a new piece.
So be prepared to pay champagne money when you buy new and lemonade money when you want to sell
The price we pay for this passion/obsession or whatever one wants to call it.

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"It is just a matter of time!"