The Breitling Watch Source Forums

As some of you may know, while I now work in finance, my original background was in physics and as a result I've always had something of an interest in materials technology - yeah, sad nerd I know, but hey!

Anyway, I just spent a bit of time reading up on titanium as I've always disliked it as a watch-case metal due to the fact that I've always found it very prone to scratches. I owned an M1 for a very short period of time and hated the scratches (and the lightness).

Standard annealed austenitic stainless steel (i.e. basically in other words, steel that has been heat treated and tempered) has a hardness rating of between 150 and 190 on the Vickers hardness scale. Various other hardening processes can be applied (such as "ice hardening" as used by Sinn on some of their watches) to increase the hardness up to around the 600 to 700 mark on the Vickers scale, but these are very rare. However, the hardened austenitic stainless steel used in watch cases (316L) generally has a hardness in the region of 200 to 240. This is the steel Breitling uses.

Now in terms of titanium, Breitling use Grade 2 titanium alloy which has a hardness somewhere in the region of 160 to 200 (and apparently most commonly about 180) on teh Vickers scale. As you can see, this is some way below the steel that Breitling uses in terms of hardness, and hence explains the scratch-happy nature of Breitling titanium watches.

However, some manufacturers (such as JLC, IWC, Girard Perregaux) use Grade 5 titanium alloy whcih has a hardness of around 360 on the Vickers scale, which is actually considerably more than 316L steel. This goes some way to explain why even top manufacturers use titanium as I was really struggling to see the benefits, other than lightness. As a result I'm not going to be put off titanium in future as long as it's Grade 5..... although the lightness may still be a bit of a problem for me as I tend to prefer heavy watches.

Oh, and just because I really like my Lum Tec M25's tungsten carbide case, tungsten carbide has a Vickers harness rating of 2240!

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Driver8

Site Moderator

I'm not sure for the logic behind it, but I have also noticed that a lot of the brands that use grade 5 also tend to make bimetallic cases with titanium and steel, titanium and gold or even titaium and ceramic. Not sure if it's design, an attempt to offset the 'too light' idea or whether there is a physics based explanation.

That's really interesting...
I wonder why Breitling uses grade 2 titanium. I thought it was grade 5 and also thought that all kind of titanium was harder than stainless steel.

Very interesting info there, Driver. I'm not a huge fan of titanium watches in general. The only titanium watch I own is the X-33. It is so light I sometimes forget I'm wearing it!

That's very interesting, I wonder if the Grade 2 is lighter or if there's a big difference in price? Pity they don't use the stronger alloy either way...

I prefer titanium for larger watches because of the lightness, but there's no getting away from the fact that the steel is visually more striking.

I have a JLC MC Diving Chrono, which as far as I can tell is 100% Grade 5 titanium. In some regards it's similar to the Chrono Avenger in size and features, but the quality of the finishing blows the Breitling away.

As far as I can tell so far, it wears as tough or tougher than steel.

Hmm, interesting to know.

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[Witty signature here]

I don't know a damn thing about 'hardness" other than taken out of context it can make me laugh like a moron. As for titanium vs. steel, I prefer steel just for the weight, I don't like a watch that I forget I'm wearing.

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"Leave the gun, take the cannoli."

I have a tungsten carbide Movado in high polish. I've had that sucker for five years and it doesn't have a single scratch on it.

What kind of titanium does Panerai use? I like their titanium/steel Luminor Power Reserve, but I have to admit the drabness of the color of titanium lacks some of the flash of really good stainless.

titanium is way more corrosion resistent then s.s. thats why you see it used on a lot of dive watches, it is also about 35% stronger than s.s. i have had a couple of watches in titanium and never had a problem with scratches. but like most everyone else i prefer the weight and look of s.s. i have heard a couple companies are doing a polished titanium? it should be interesting to see. steve

I gotta be honest, when I've tried on titanium watches at my AD, I can't really tell a difference. Like, I think I can tell a difference because I know one is supposed to be lighter, but in reality, it's not noticeable to me. The difference in weight is what, about 20%?

I write a similar post on forums about weapons that I'm on (Palantas is on many forums). The difference between a steel-framed 1911 and an aluminum-framed 1911 is about 20%, and I really can't tell the difference between one or the other that I'm wearing.

I'm not saying I don't believe other people when they say they can tell a difference, just that I can't. Maybe something's the matter with me. Anyone else like this?

EDIT: "1911" is a style of pistol, for people not educated in such matters.

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40 - 45%

I think that we can all agree with that

As far as watches go, I can tell when a watch is titanium, I just think it's way lighter. I've never held a titanium 1911, but I would have to imagine that it'd be lighter than my 6" SA 1911 (not Super Avenger, Springfield Armory). I don't remember what the little Smith revolvers are made of, magnesium or some crap or maybe titanium, I don't know, but they sure as hell are a lot lighter than other equally sized steel small frame revolvers.

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"Leave the gun, take the cannoli."

Just like I prefer the weight of the SS watches I also prefer the weight of steel in my guns. It really is beneficial when I run out of bullets or don't want to waste a bullet and have to use it as a club to persuade someone to lay down and go to "sleep".

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Are there titanium 1911s? How much do they weigh?

EDIT:

And while we're here, let me add to my comments. I can tell the difference when holding or firing an aluminum 1911 versus a steel one. But that's not why the aluminum ones are advertised as being aluminum. They're advertised as being easier to carry, and I can't tell a difference of six ounces in an object attached to my belt, much like I can't tell a difference of 40 or 50 grams in an object attached to my wrist.

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[Witty signature here]