The Breitling Watch Source Forums :: View topic - Brand questions (Flame if you like)

I dont quite understand the point of your question. You can buy a quality in house movement from JLC, UN, Panerai, and even Breguet for under 10k let alone 15k.

Eventhough two difference brands use a similar ETA based movement, one can still be 'better' than the other and not just aesthetically speaking. Breitling and Tag are both have some similar priced watches and both use ETA movements, is Breitling better? I don't even think it's debatable.

One of the things I see little of on this forum versus others is the general band bashing. Well at least since Roff drank the Pam laced Koolaid.

Are you asking if the line of demarcation between real luxury and perceived luxury is drawn based on the source of the movement?

Iantheklutz wrote:

Are you asking if the line of demarcation between real luxury and perceived luxury is drawn based on the source of the movement?

Yes, I guess I am. Does an in-house movement denote luxury? Does an out-sourced movement mean that simply the brand, dials, case, etc., are the only "real" differences between watch X and watch Y? I guess it all depends on what color car you want (as Roff puts it). Good analogy actually.

I guess I am just taking in all the responses here. Learning lesson for me...

Others may disagree, but not all ETAs are created equal. Breitling's ETA based movements and one found in a "lesser" brand will have marked differences in quality and workmanship.

I also feel that ETA, as a whole, may be under appreciated. People sometimes have a feeling that they are cheap, dime-a-dozen, throw-aways. The "workhorse" moniker conveys the feeling that these movements are the Model T of the watch world. They are, in my opinion, fantastic pieces of work that demand a lot more respect. They are not, by any means, unique but I have an appreciation for the craftsmanship it takes to put one together.

Thanks all.

Anyone know what Breitling's new in-house movement watch costs? I love the brand and am considering a new watch soon. I wanted a Panerai but believe I am sticking with a B.

Iantheklutz wrote:

I completely agree. As Ian said, Breitling and others modify the movements they get from ETA (and do a beautiful job) until you can barely use the "two cars, same engine" analogy anymore.

Also, I believe ETA will often make the same movement in three different "executions"- elaborated, top and chronometer, so the using the same model of movement does not necessarily mean the manufacturers are all coming from the same starting point unless you know they are using the same execution.

Author:	UofRSpider [ Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:16 am ]
Post subject:	Brand questions (Flame if you like)
I have really been thinking about this lately. Regarding all this "brand" bashing I read about on numerous forums; In the 2K to 8K range, all the watches are essentially the same (speaking of Swiss movements). Yes, an ETA movement can be "modified" or decorated differently, but essentially they are the same. The brand, dials, case, band, etc., are all different, yes. But to say my Breitling is better than your Omega is basically based on aesthetics? Yes, no? I understand certain watches were built for certain things, etc. I also understand the artwork regarding the dials. But is it not basically "in the eye of the beholder?" Unless you spend 15K+, you really don't get into any "luxury" in-house movements (let's exclude Rolex)? I LOVE my Breitling, and LOVE my Maurice Lacriox. They are both using outsourced movements. Not a bad thing obviously! Am I wrong? Help me!

Author:	Roffensian [ Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Brand questions (Flame if you like)
Sorry, don't follow that logic at all. You can get hundreds of in house pieces for less than $15,000, and you can pay a lot more than $15,000 for a generic movement. The movement is important to many WIS, but to others, and I suspect to most one or two watch people, the "eye of the beholder" is what watches are all about. We don't need them to tell the time these days so they become a form of personal expression - same reason why they make cars in different colours.

Author:	RJRJRJ [ Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Brand questions (Flame if you like)
I agree with Roff. There are certainly a lot of luxury in-house watches for below $15,000. JLC, Glashutte Original etc. There are also some very expensive ETAs (Hublot, anyone?). I dont think many people will say that Omega is better than Breitling or vice versa, based on an objective viewpoint. Both use similar movements, both have luxury marks and a nice history, and both are around the same price point. Mercedes or BMW. Objectively, a $100 G-Shock is the best watch you can buy. Why? Because a watch is made to tell time and that thing tells the time as good as anything else out there. Obviously we've grown to appreciate other aspects, like aesthetics, cache, workmanship, history, exclusivity etc., which is why its up to you as an individual to determine which watch is the "best", or why one watch or maker is "better" than another.

Author:	mfserge [ Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Brand questions (Flame if you like)
I dont quite understand the point of your question. You can buy a quality in house movement from JLC, UN, Panerai, and even Breguet for under 10k let alone 15k. Eventhough two difference brands use a similar ETA based movement, one can still be 'better' than the other and not just aesthetically speaking. Breitling and Tag are both have some similar priced watches and both use ETA movements, is Breitling better? I don't even think it's debatable.

Author:	sharkman [ Sun Sep 05, 2010 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Brand questions (Flame if you like)
mfserge wrote: I dont quite understand the point of your question. You can buy a quality in house movement from JLC, UN, Panerai, and even Breguet for under 10k let alone 15k. Eventhough two difference brands use a similar ETA based movement, one can still be 'better' than the other and not just aesthetically speaking. Breitling and Tag are both have some similar priced watches and both use ETA movements, is Breitling better? I don't even think it's debatable. Let's not forget Zenith either- you can get one of the best in house movements (El Primero) in a nice Chronomaster for under $10K. As for the original question, I would say "yes" it's MOSTLY individual preference. Breitling remains my favorite brand, but objectively there is no doubt my Omegas are more precise time pieces than my Breitlings. IDK why, they just are - by a meaningful edge. One of the things I see little of on this forum versus others is the general band bashing. Well at least since Roff drank the Pam laced Koolaid.

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Author:	Iantheklutz [ Sun Sep 05, 2010 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Brand questions (Flame if you like)
I'd agree with the others' comments about there being a relatively large availability of in house movement at price points well below 15K. Are you asking if the line of demarcation between real luxury and perceived luxury is drawn based on the source of the movement?

Author:	RJRJRJ [ Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Brand questions (Flame if you like)
sharkman wrote: One of the things I see little of on this forum versus others is the general band bashing. Well at least since Roff drank the Pam laced Koolaid. I had to read this twice to understand. "Little of", as in "doesnt happen here much.." and I agree. This forum seems to be very accepting of all types of watches. Some of the other forums have a "defend my favorite brand to the death" mentality that can be tiresome.

Author:	john123 [ Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Brand questions (Flame if you like)
I have to agree with the others here...there are more "high quality" watches available for less than $15K than I will ever be able to buy in my lifetime. In fact, I would rather buy multiple watches under $15K than one for over $15K (at least at this point that is how I feel).

Author:	UofRSpider [ Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Brand questions (Flame if you like)
Iantheklutz wrote: Are you asking if the line of demarcation between real luxury and perceived luxury is drawn based on the source of the movement? Yes, I guess I am. Does an in-house movement denote luxury? Does an out-sourced movement mean that simply the brand, dials, case, etc., are the only "real" differences between watch X and watch Y? I guess it all depends on what color car you want (as Roff puts it). Good analogy actually. I guess I am just taking in all the responses here. Learning lesson for me...

Author:	Iantheklutz [ Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Brand questions (Flame if you like)
UofRSpider wrote: Iantheklutz wrote: Are you asking if the line of demarcation between real luxury and perceived luxury is drawn based on the source of the movement? Yes, I guess I am. Does an in-house movement denote luxury? Does an out-sourced movement mean that simply the brand, dials, case, etc., are the only "real" differences between watch X and watch Y? I guess it all depends on what color car you want (as Roff puts it). Good analogy actually. I guess I am just taking in all the responses here. Learning lesson for me... Others may disagree, but not all ETAs are created equal. Breitling's ETA based movements and one found in a "lesser" brand will have marked differences in quality and workmanship. I also feel that ETA, as a whole, may be under appreciated. People sometimes have a feeling that they are cheap, dime-a-dozen, throw-aways. The "workhorse" moniker conveys the feeling that these movements are the Model T of the watch world. They are, in my opinion, fantastic pieces of work that demand a lot more respect. They are not, by any means, unique but I have an appreciation for the craftsmanship it takes to put one together.

Author:	Mellow Yellow [ Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Brand questions (Flame if you like)
Iantheklutz wrote: Others may disagree, but not all ETAs are created equal. Breitling's ETA based movements and one found in a "lesser" brand will have marked differences in quality and workmanship. I also feel that ETA, as a whole, may be under appreciated. People sometimes have a feeling that they are cheap, dime-a-dozen, throw-aways. The "workhorse" moniker conveys the feeling that these movements are the Model T of the watch world. They are, in my opinion, fantastic pieces of work that demand a lot more respect. They are not, by any means, unique but I have an appreciation for the craftsmanship it takes to put one together. I completely agree. As Ian said, Breitling and others modify the movements they get from ETA (and do a beautiful job) until you can barely use the "two cars, same engine" analogy anymore. Also, I believe ETA will often make the same movement in three different "executions"- elaborated, top and chronometer, so the using the same model of movement does not necessarily mean the manufacturers are all coming from the same starting point unless you know they are using the same execution.

Author:	UofRSpider [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Brand questions (Flame if you like)
Thanks all. Anyone know what Breitling's new in-house movement watch costs? I love the brand and am considering a new watch soon. I wanted a Panerai but believe I am sticking with a B.

Author:	Mellow Yellow [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Brand questions (Flame if you like)
UofRSpider wrote: Thanks all. Anyone know what Breitling's new in-house movement watch costs? I love the brand and am considering a new watch soon. I wanted a Panerai but believe I am sticking with a B. I think they're around £6000 here in England for SS. I imagine you'd end up paying closer to £5k, but I'm sure someone with first-hand experience will offer more accurate information soon enough!

Author:	bozman52 [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Brand questions (Flame if you like)
UofRSpider wrote: Thanks all. Anyone know what Breitling's new in-house movement watch costs? I love the brand and am considering a new watch soon. I wanted a Panerai but believe I am sticking with a B. The MSRP on a B01 in steel with the pilot bracelet is $7690. With a leather tang strap, the price drops to $6550. A diver pro strap will drop $50 off the latter price, which is the absolute cheapest MSRP I know of. If you want to get into two tone or gold/white gold, the price goes up from here. -Craig

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Author:	Driver8 [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Brand questions (Flame if you like)
Mellow Yellow wrote: Iantheklutz wrote: Others may disagree, but not all ETAs are created equal. Breitling's ETA based movements and one found in a "lesser" brand will have marked differences in quality and workmanship. I also feel that ETA, as a whole, may be under appreciated. People sometimes have a feeling that they are cheap, dime-a-dozen, throw-aways. The "workhorse" moniker conveys the feeling that these movements are the Model T of the watch world. They are, in my opinion, fantastic pieces of work that demand a lot more respect. They are not, by any means, unique but I have an appreciation for the craftsmanship it takes to put one together. I completely agree. As Ian said, Breitling and others modify the movements they get from ETA (and do a beautiful job) until you can barely use the "two cars, same engine" analogy anymore. Also, I believe ETA will often make the same movement in three different "executions"- elaborated, top and chronometer, so the using the same model of movement does not necessarily mean the manufacturers are all coming from the same starting point unless you know they are using the same execution. You are absolutely right. While I'm a big fan of in-house movements because (to me at least) they represent individuality better than something running a more generic base movement, there is no doubt at all that firstly, ETA make very fine reliable quality movements, and secondly, that not all ETA's are created equal. As Mellow Yellow said there are three "factory fresh" grades of movement - Elaborated, Top and Chronometer - and in some cases (such as the 2824) a forth lowest grade below Elaborated known as Standard grade. Key differences in components between the various grades include the pallet stones, the barrel spring, the shock protection system, the hairspring and the balance wheel...... and in some cases the regulator mechanism. These differences, when coupled with the number of positions a movement is adjusted in, make a reasonable difference in the expected accuracy of each grade. i.e. In Standard form the 2824 is expected to maintain an averate rate of +/-12 seconds/day. The Elaborated grade should maintain an average rate of +/-7 seconds/day. Top should maintain an average rate of +/-4 seconds/day with a maximum daily deviation of +/- 10 seconds. Chronometer grade is essential Top grade once it has been officially certified by the COSC. So as you can see there is a pretty big variation across the different grades as soon as they come from the factory. However the subject of "modified ETAs" opens a real can of worms in terms of trying to evaluate movements by different manufacturers. Very few (if any, in fact) openly say what they do to modifiy their base ETA's, so that immediately makes comparisons very difficult if not impossible. Some companies claim to use modified ETA's when all they actually do it fit a decorated rotor. Others like IWC make a huge number of changes. (I did have are article saved down somewhere about IWC, and they really do modify their movements). As far as I know we've never really got to the bottom of what Breitling do, so I guess they fall somewhere in between these two extremes of "modification". And as I touched on above, does decoration count as modification? To some people it does, to others it doesn't. To me it certainly doesn't but that's what makes the whole thing about "modification" such a minefield to nail down. And this is part of the reason why I personally like in-house movements - because (especially nowadays) manufacturers are using their in-house movements to showcase their brand - hence it's not in a brand's interest to produce a movement that is running low spec parts, or incapable of keep to a decent mean daily rate. So generally speaking in-house movements will be "better" than a low spec ETA............ but at the Top/Chronometer grade end there may not be much in it in terms of performance. In fact the ETA may even be "better" in terms of keeping good time and remaining reliable simply because ETA movements have been around so long that all the issues have been ironed out. At that point, the in-house will only possibly win through either by virtue of the esoteric concept of perhaps being more individual, or by offering some feature that the ETA doesn't (e.g. long power reserve, etc). And ultimately it depends if this is important to you or not. At the end of the day, ETA make fine movements, and that's why you will find pretty much un-modified ETA's in a lot of watches costing well over $15k. And this is fine as to some (generally non-WIS) people, what is going on inside a watch is far less important to what it looks like on the outside. e.g. (as mentioned above) Hublot. Likewise you can pick up a good few in-house equiped pieces for a lot less than $15k which is great news for us poor WIS folks!