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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:26 am 
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There's been a few occurrences in threads recently about in-house movements and how some people really value them while others don't at all, so I just thought I'd put down a few of my own thoughts on the topic. It's also fairly topical for myself as I have finally decided to commit to a decision that I've been toying with for the best part of a year now. Basically over the course of the next year or so I am going to move my entire collection to in-house movements, and sell off the rest. :shock: Now I fully realise that there will only be a tiny percentage of you (probably <1%) that would ever consider doing the same, and I'm absolutely fine with that. I also realise that while quite a few of you appreciate the value of an in-house movement, I fully understand that there will be a percentage of people who either simply just don't "get" the whole in-house thing, or "get it" just fine but decide it's not important enough to pay the premium. I'm absolutely fine with that too. :thumbsup:

I also want to say right up front, that this is in no way a diatribe against ETA movements in general, or watches with ETA based movements in them. It's just a collection of my rambling thoughts on why I particularly like manufacture movements and why I'm going to make such a radical change to my collection. So anyway, these are my thoughts on the subject -

I've always liked watches right back from when was given my first analogue Timex watch as a kid of about 5 or 6, if I remember correctly. From then on, the watches I liked were those that basically looked cool! Back in the late 70's/early 80's that meant a black Casio digital watch (the forerunner of the G-Shock, if you will!). In my early teens, cool meant a big chunky analogue/digital Zeon, so that was the type of watch I had. In my mid-teens, cool and classy was a TT Seiko, until finally around 20ish I "graduated" to a quartz Omega SMP. In all that time, I simply liked watches because of what they looked like on the outside. They were a just a cool thing to wear, that also had the added bonus of making sure I was home in time for tea! What was going on inside meant nothing to me - in fact the only thing I knew that had remotely anything to do with the internals of a watch was that, "Rolex's are the best 'cause they have a sweeping hand!" :oops:

But that Omega SMP triggered something within me - basically it started to get me interested in more than just what a watch looked like, but also how it worked, and as I looked into it I became a whole of a lot more interested in mechanical movements. The way you power them yourself with either your own movements or by manually winding them, the way they have a "heart-beat" (of sorts) of their own, the amount of skill required to construct something using just cogs, wheels and springs that can still be 99.9% accurate, etc, etc. I also love the fact that in a world where new technology comes along all the time, in a mechanical watch there is essentially no modern technology (e.g. circuits, or batteries) at all.

Thus started my costly addiction to mechanical watches, and for more than a decade I bought and owned a lot of watches watches that 9 times out of 10 always had a mechanical movement. And as I've now come to realise, every single mechanical watch I've ever owned (except one notable exception) contained a movement that originated in the factories of ETA/Valjoux. Every. Single. One. Now I'm not saying that's a bad thing per se, but when somewhere in the region of 15 to 20 Breitlings and probably another 15 or so by other brands all used a variation of either the ETA 2824, the 2892, or the Valjoux 7750, it doesn't show a lot of variety......

But in the last 2 or 3 years, I feel my watch appreciation has developed in such a way (not least encouraged by this forum) to the point where what is going on inside a watch is EQUALLY as important to me as what it looks like on the outside. Some of you may find this very difficult to understand, but just as I won't buy a watch if I don't like the design, nor will I buy one if the movement's not what I'm looking for either.

Anyway, as I mentioned above, my one non-ETA powered watch is my IWC Big Pilot which houses the in-house IWC 7 Day automatic movement. Now I'll be honest here, I have had a few issues with it in terms of timekeeping - it does gain a little more than it should, but there are plenty of owners out there who can attest to fine timekeeping from that movement, so I put it down to IWC's (or rather the Richemont Group's) patchy customer service and inability to regulate it correctly. :evil: That said, it's also a slower beating movement at 21,600 vph which means it's tougher to regulate than something with a faster beat. But then again, if atomic-clock timekeeping was my primary goal, I'd have spent all my money at the altar of Superquartz long ago, instead of spending money on automatics. No - living my life to the accuracy of less than a second is not my "thing", so a daily gain of a few seconds I can live with.

To me, the very idea that a movement is TOTALLY unique to a brand if pretty important these days. For example, I personally wouldn't want a watch that was made up of an Omega case, a Breitling bezel, a Rolex bracelet and a Seiko dial. That's kind of how it's become for me with the movement too. And before anyone says it, yes I know that even in in-house movements, component construction such as hairsprings is usually outsourced (with the exception of a very elite few like Roger Dubuis who make everything themselves :bow: ), but that's fine by me as the movement and construction is still brand specific. So much about luxury goods is about how they make you feel, and I personally love knowing that the movement in my Big Pilot isn't found anywhere outside of IWC. I know it's daft, and it's hard to explain, but I'ma WIS and it just feels good to me. As I say, some people love the accuracy of SQ : for me, it's know that the entire watch is unique to the brand.

In my opinion, ALL mechanical movements are works of art in their own right, and the in-house movement is just (dare I say) a higher example of that art form IMO. I read today on another thread here when the topic of a watch being an art-form cropped up, that someone said that unless you can see a movement through a display back then who cares if it's well decorated or not. While I don't personally agree with that, the statement is understandable IF you define art purely as something you look at, but to me it misses the point entirely. In my opinion the artwork is not really about the decoration, it's about the function and work that went into creating that function. Of course, it could also be very nicely decorated, but when it comes to something mechanical, the functionality, design and craftsmanship is where the art-work is. It's like a car - you don't say it's got a great engine only if it looks nice when you pop the hood. No, you have to use it to feel and know what it's about : the art is in the performance and knowing the attention to detail that went into creating that performance. At least, that's how it is for me.

Some people say that in-house movements are generally more untested and can be temperamental, and in lots of ways that can be true. The ETA 2824 has been around since the 1950's so it's not remotely surprising that they've managed to iron out any issues over the past 60 years. However, to use the car analogy again, the potentially temperamental nature of a Ferrari engine doesn't stop people buying Ferraris..... and loving every minute of ownership. You won't find many car enthusiasts aspiring to own something that's not unique, exquisitely constructed and beautiful at the same time....... and that's how I feel as a watch enthusiast. To me it's logical to aspire to in-house movements because they represent the more unique, interesting and high-end aspects of watch-making. And if they ever happen to be temperamental and need repairs - frankly, who cares! At the end of the day, no matter how passionate we are about these things, they're still just watches. Heck if I'm without one for any length of time I can tell the time on my mobile phone!

Lastly, I just want to reiterate that this post is in no way meant to berate ETA or any watches that house their movements. And it is CERTAINLY not intended to berate anyone who owns one. ETA movements are great quality and extremely reliable..... it's just that for me, they aren't exclusive enough for what I want from a watch. ETA have carved a niche (well, more of a massive cave really!) in the market that has allowed them to both dominate the movement industry, and (on the plus side) also allow mechanical movements to be made available to large numbers of people for pretty reasonable prices. Heck, I wouldn't have ever gotten into mechanical watches myself if it wasn't for ETA, so for that I am immensely grateful. It's just that now I'm now looking for something different in my watches, just like some people may insist on the accuracy of SQ, or insist on a certain level of water resistance, etc. Therefore this post is merely a (pretty long) monologue to explain my own motivations behind my love of manufacture movements, and hence why I will be selling off my ETA-powered pieces in due course.

I realise by taking this course that I'll be cutting out a huge swathe of quality watches from my "potential purchase" list, but I'm fine with that as there are around 10 pieces with in-house movements out there that I consider to be absolutely superb (and more importantly, attainable price-wise!), and obtaining those will keep me pretty busy for the foreseeable future! :thumbsup: It's definitely a case of quality over quantity for me from now on.

Anyway, those are my musings, and congratulations if you've stuck with them this far! :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:17 pm 
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I'm coming back to read this later Driver? :D

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:27 pm 
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OK, Great! let's get to the 'meat' of this post. :lol:

WHAT ARE YOU SELLING??? :drool:
(p.s. - I did read the whole thing, have no problem with it)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:15 pm 
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:yeahthat

Common man, the list! Where is the list! :)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:35 pm 
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Well I've taken the time to read that thoroughly Driver and I'm slightly embarrased to say that at no time did I once think about the movements of the watches I have purchased. I don't know wether that is naive of me or not but admitedly I went for looks first with all my purchases.

Like yourself I've loved watches from a very young age and like you tried to wear what was cool at the time. I'm now 34 and I don't think that train of thought has left me yet! :D :oops:

I would say that I'm at a different level of enthusiast than I was 2 years ago, maybe in another 3 or 4 years I'll be thinking more of in-house movements etc but for the time being I like watches for the way they look and the way they feel when there on my wrist. Not sure what bracket of enthusiast that puts me in but I'm not too sure I care, I love watches and thats what makes it good for me.

Cheers

ps Great post again by the way!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:53 pm 
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Driver, I must say your post really resonated with me. I'm very early on in my watch collecting career, much more so than most people on this forum. I'm actually a little disappointed I didn't get into watches earlier in my life, as I'm very passionate about anything mechanical. My first mechanical watch was the B01, which is a pretty monumental watch to begin one's collection with! Although I've had some reliability issues with it as of late, I still absolutely adore it. It's truly made me appreciate how special it is to have an in-house movement, which is why reading your post almost felt like you'd reached into my head and pulled out my own thoughts.

As I compile more watches, I've decided I want them to be something special. "Special" is a very subjective term, so what's special to me won't be special to someone else. Currently, I've only been looking seriously at watches that house in-house movements, because to me, this puts a watch into the "special" category. I do find vintage watches (especially a Navi 806) pretty incredible as well, even though most will house an ETA/Valjoux movement . . . err Venus in the case of the 806, so I hope no one lambastes me if I ever buy something like that :). Anyway, I looked seriously at a Navi World a few weeks ago, but at the end of the day, there was nothing "special" about it to me. It's a beautiful watch, but it's a mass produced piece with an ETA movement and I didn't feel as excited about it as I thought I should for that amount of money. I'd rather put the $5000 towards a JLC or Zenith at this point in my collection.

That being said, for the right price, I may be willing to consider some choice ETA-based watches. What exactly from your collection is going up for sale . . . ?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:25 pm 
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Exceptionally well written Driver8, and no one will be surprised that my feelings are similar.

I am undoubtedly 100% mechanical - I admire thermo compensated quartz, and what it can bring, but I got into watches through vintage pieces and to me that means the mechanical 'engine'. For the same reason I have a great appreciation for vintage movements - British, American and Swiss pocket watches as well as the Venus / Valjoux / Felsa / Lemania / Landeron / etc Swiss wristwatch explosion. That's a combination of what we would now call in house and generic movements.

As I have started to learn watchmaking and taken my interest in mechanical watches to a whole new level then I am seeing them in a whole new light, and that inevitably takes me to in house movements as that is where the variation lies. I have said several times that I am looking for watches that are different, and that extends to movements. It's 'different' that is the appeal for me, and whilke that is 90% in house there are pieces like the Concepto movement in my new Romain Jerome that I also find exciting because it is different to anything else that I have.

I won't be going all in house / different like Driver8 because I don't sell pieces that I already have, but I completely understand the sentiments.

Driver8 I think that is a very well explained reasoning for what is important for you and hopefully will help those people who don't share our passion for the mechanics to understand why we feel so passionate about it. Of course, many will think that we are crazy, but that's OK - the world would be a very boring place if we all liked the same thing, and there would be nothing to talk about here :wink:

I'm looking forward to seeing your collection expand with the in house pieces.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:41 pm 
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wow what a great post! i tip my hat to you driver for being so honest. i am almost ashamed to admit this but here goes....everytime i buy a watch i base my purchase of pure looks. i have to agree with you though the movement is very important, but for whatever reason companies that do have their own in house movements like IWC or JLC just do not appeal to me at this time in my life. I think it has something to do with my age if that makes any sense.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:00 pm 
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That is quite the decision Driver! And will take some time and effort to move them all, I hope you have better luck than I have had!

Although I share your love for mechanical movements, and particularly in house movments, I am not as unwavering as you are. I do respect a manufacture that innovates and produces its own movements, especially those who build the entire thing from scratch like Rolex and Seiko, and that adds allot to the watches, but there is room, for me at least, for third party movements as well. If you go back in history, almost every iconic watch was built one time or another with non-manufacture movements. The Rolex Daytona with their Zenith movements, the IWC pilots, the vintage Panerais with their Rolex movements, the Omega Speedmasters, the original Navitimers....the list is endless! I believe there is room for innovation, in house manufacture, and strategic outsourcing for many circumstances.

I am not trying to dissuade you, You seem like you put allot of carefull thought into this move. But a word of advice based on my experience, you might have a change of heart sooner than you think. I know it has happened to me many time.

I would say sell a few of your watches, get a few with in house movements and wait it out. I cant help but feel this might be a temporary thing like the phases we all go through. I am very happy with where I am collection wise, but I have done some pretty costley mistakes, boy is that an understatement :shock: and I would not want to see you do the same. I dont claim to understand your needs better than you do, I am just advising caution :thumbsup:

That said, it sure would be allot of fun to wipe the slate and start over again! If it was not for the potential losses in resale and the fact that I would probably end up with 80% of my current collection I would join you :lol:

So does that mean no more Steinhart LE2 for you? :(

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:24 am 
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Thanks for your kind words guys - I appreciate it. :thumbsup: (And I also appreciate you taking the time to wade through such a long post! I was just typing away and didn't realise how long it was! :oops: )

Yeah I know it's quite a radical decision, but my buying and selling over the years has meant that my current collection is only 7 pieces, so it's not really a massive issue to move them on. My intention now is to only buy things that I consider to be special and lifelong keepers, so once these are gone, I'm going to be in Roff territory of never selling!

@Altair - If I had a collection the size of yours then I'd find it far more of an issue to make this change..... although to be fair, you have a huge number of in-houses piece in there anyway, so maybe it wouldn't be so hard! :lol: And thanks for the words of caution my friend, but while I've not made this decision of mine public before, I have been thinking about this for quite some time now (best part of a year now), and it's not something I'm entering into lightly. The other thing that will make it easier for me it that I have no specific sentimental attraction to any of them. In other words none were bought by my family, or at specific times in my life, so in that respect I feel I can move them with a clear conscience, if that makes sense. Obviously that's not to say I don't LIKE them, because I do, but I think the sacrifice will be worth it in the end as I'll have a collection that is exactly what I'm looking for. (Hopefully! :lol: )

@Roff - I quite agree that things like your RJ are different enough to overlook the internals, but if I am going to be starting a new collection essentially from the ground up, then there are plenty of in-house pieces that are attracting me first.

In terms of what will be going - well from Breitling it will be a Bentley Motors, a Bentley 6.75, a Navi World, and an SA, but as I said, I'm not likely to dump them all on the market in one go, so they will probably go up for sale in dribs and drabs over the next year. I'll list them here when I do, so keep your eyes pealed if you're likely to be interested! :)

Just one other thing guys - a couple of said you feel a little embarrassed about buying your watches just for the looks on the back of my post. I really hope that's just a turn of phrase, because there is absolutely nothing wrong with buying a watch (or anything else for that matter) for those reasons alone, and that was certainly not how I wanted anyone to feel. We all have our own reasons for buying the things we do, and no-one's reason is any more or less valid that any other. Just keeping buying and enjoying your watches for whatever reasons attract you to them, guys! :thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:26 am 
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Superbly written D8, I definitely enjoyed reading your musings!

Congratulations too in advance for what is clearly a well thought out and relevant decision to you. I'm not surprised to hear this actually. I've taken the time to read some of the older posts on this subject and it's been very interesting to see how individual's thoughts and experiences on this forum have evolved. While the inner workings of a watch are important to me now, they certainly weren't an issue at all when I started collecting luxury watches. You might say that my impressions have evolved over the relatively short time I've been a member here, which is not really surprising considering the subject matter at hand.

In-house movements are certainly now an important factor when I consider a watch purchase, which is partly why my next acquisition is most likely going to be a JLC. However for me to say that I'm now only going to buy pieces with in-house movements is a little presumptuous although at the same time it wouldn't surprise me. Still I like your thinking.

So I wish you the very best of luck. I'm certainly intrigued by what your new acquisitions are going to consist of and good luck with selling your existing collection. Will you miss any of your pieces do you think?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:36 am 
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Driver8 wrote:
Just one other thing guys - a couple of said you feel a little embarrassed about buying your watches just for the looks on the back of my post. I really hope that's just a turn of phrase, because there is absolutely nothing wrong with buying a watch (or anything else for that matter) for those reasons alone, and that was certainly not how I wanted anyone to feel. We all have our own reasons for buying the things we do, and no-one's reason is any more or less valid that any other. Just keeping buying and enjoying your watches for whatever reasons attract you to them, guys! :thumbsup:



No probs here m8! :D

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:12 am 
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A well written post Driver, and a bold and brave decision! I look forward to see how your watchbox will change!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:30 am 
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Tim S wrote:
Superbly written D8, I definitely enjoyed reading your musings!....

.....Will you miss any of your pieces do you think?

Thanks Tim! :thumbsup:

I think the only one I will really miss is my Navi World, so don't be surprised if that's the last one to go! Hopefully though (and I'm keeping everything crossed here!) by the time that's the last one left, Breitling will have dropped the B01 (or a varient of it) into a Navi case, so there won't be a problem. Hopefully!

In terms of the other 3 Breitlings - I must confess to not wearing the SA much these days primarily on account of it's dimensions, especially with a formal shirt for the office. And while I still love the Bentleys for what they are, I'm not so keen on the whole bling bling rapper connection these days, so I don't think I'll miss them too much.

Just as an aside, I may even sell my 5004 Big Pilot as the one I really want is the 5002 "Transitional" Big Pilot. (Basically the 5002 was the older version that had the more traditional dial and hands, but it came with an even slower beating movement. However there was a small number made during the change-over to the 5004, which had the 5002 dial and hands, but the 5004 movement. Essentially the best of both worlds!) However the rarity and desirability of the Transitional pieces means people charge stupid money for them, but if one comes up, I will definitely sell my 5004 for it. But only on that basis.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:15 am 
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Wow, great post and I must say I admire your decision. Over the years I have also moved toward this direction, but my addiction draws me to watches that just don't qualify as in-house keepers. If money was no option I would do this in a heartbeat ;). The price increases experienced from collecting only in-house movements will keep me from doing this for some time. Maybe if I learn to limit my collection, it would be possible, unfortunately I'm nuts and buy way to many pieces (going on three in seven days now...side note: expect pictures of my first perpetual calendar that arrives today!!!).

I wish you good luck in your new venture, and just as others have stated, I'll be here to 'help you' get rid of your old collection :D


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