The Breitling Watch Source Forums

I was reading an article about the merger between TAG and Zenith (under the new name LVMH), and it mentioned that the two companies already work together quite a bit. Zenith has their cases manufactured by Cortech (owned by TAG) and TAG already uses Zenith movements in some of their watches. The latter fact was news to me, so I looked up the models, and fell in love with the Grand Carrera 36 RS, which features a Zenith El Primero movement:


I hope to see one of these in person before really committing to officially lusting after it. But, wow, what a watch!

What is interesting is that technically there is no difference in manufacturers between this watch and my Zenith Chronomaster Open...the cases were both made by Cortech and the movements by Zenith (although I am sure Cortech makes cases in a wide range of qualities). So you see, the Grand Carrera 32 RS is not really a TAG.

What I want to know is, why isn't Zenith creating innovative and great-looking pieces like this??? OK, they have plenty of "innovation" in their Defy Extreme line, but they are barely functional as watches anymore and most of them look terrible!

///M

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There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." --Dave Barry

Great, next thing you will be lusting after a Louis Vuitton

Seriousely, that watch is not to my liking, and the fact that Zenith has their cases practicly made by TAG takes away from Zenith, not the other way around. Then again I am biased against TAG (and LV) something about their projected image I guess.

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Certified watch nut.

i love this watch, the ss version though.... i think the black Ti version is a bit to... racey.

Lovley watch though. I talked about it a wile ago, i was told by the idiots in harrods that it was a inhouse movment. sopose it is... but its zeniths inhouse movment

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Pain is only weakness leaving the body.

You bring up a great point. Why is there so much love for Zenith on the forum but not much love for TAG? They are both owned by LVMH. What are the main differences? Educate me please.

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Current collection: Breitling Superocean Heritage I 46, Rolex Submariner, Swatch X ****** Sistem51

The ownership is irrelevant. Breguet and Swatch are owned by Swatch Group, yet oddly I like Breguet, but not Swatch

Comparing Tag and Zenith just because of corporate ownership is flawed in my opinion, they have different target markets, different price points, different approaches to watchmaking, they just aren't comparable to me.

First point that comes to mind: they both use the movement, but that doesn't mean they're both worthy of credit for creating it. Not only did TAG have nothing to do with developing the El Primero movement, they were actually directly competing against Zenith at the time (well, Heuer was).

I agree that ownership is usually irrelevant. There are plenty of examples within and outside the watch community that the identity of holding companies, at least if they know to leave well enough alone, can be moot. In this case, LVMH has agreed to keep both TAG Heuer and Zenith as separate entities.

However, in this case there is similarity of manufacture. The same company, Cortech, makes cases for both companies. And in this case, the movement is made by the same company as well. TAG is merely the designer and integrator (as they essentially are for most if not all of their watches). In this case, I think they came up with a good design. As the the integration, I would assume it's OK, but I don't know, since I have not seen it in person.

Certainly it is possible that TAG does not require Cortech to produce cases to the same quality level that Zenith does. But again, it is hard to judge for this particular model. At $10,000 I would expect the case to be extremely well made, but who really knows.

So my devil's advocate question is: If I look at the watch in person and feel that the quality of manufacture of the case is equal to what I would find in a Zenith, then does it matter whether it says "TAG" or "Zenith" on the dial?

///M

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There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." --Dave Barry

I really appreciate the answers to my questions. Roff and Otto, you make sound arguments that I agree with. I just was unsure of the differences and appreciate the free education (This is what makes this forum great.)

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Current collection: Breitling Superocean Heritage I 46, Rolex Submariner, Swatch X ****** Sistem51

Well, that's a question that only you can answer!

I've owned a couple of TAGs myself a few years ago (an Aquagraph and an Aquaracer) and personally I just don't really like the image that TAGs have, especially where I come from. TAGs are generally seen as somewhat "chav-tastic" where I come from and that in itself is enough to make me steer clear. ("Alright geezer, yeah I got me new TAG on! I'll wear it darn the footie tomorra and impress the birds with it at 'alf time!!", etc )

No offense intended to any TAG owners out there, but that's certainly how they are seen when I live.

Zenith just has a infinite amount of class in comparison IMHO.

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Driver8

Site Moderator

Buy what you like. That is a gorgeous watch and if I had an extra funds laying around, I would certainly wear it.

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Mmmmm

It is personal.

I am a watch snob so automatically Tag gets frowned upon. That said, if my Chronomaster said Tag on the dial instead of Zenith I would still like the watch.

The world though clearly sees Tag as a lower end brand. Lats September there was an event in Monaco called 'Only Watch' - a charitable auction of unique pieces (or unique variations) - the results are here - http://patrizzi2.auctionsystem.co.uk/ca ... aspx?cid=9

There was a Tag there - a version of the brand new, almost decade in the making, Monaco v4 and it solf for 55,000 Euros. That seems like a good price until you consider that the retail price for the regular version is almost 60,000 Euros - clearly the market spoke. By contrast, Zenith provided a version of one of their anniversary pieces. The price was only 10,000 Euros, but that was a greater than 50% premium on the comparable retail model.

But among watch snobs, other lower end brands like Hamilton and Oris seem to have good reputation. So it's not just being lower end...I guess it's the perception of value? Perhaps TAGs are seen too expensive for what they are. Or maybe the brand is seen as being too pretentious?


Yeah, I am getting the sense that it's not so much TAG the brand as the image of TAG owners that is the issue. Image is kind of a double-edged sword. I may like a TAG, but I don't want other people to see me as a "the kind of person who likes TAGs." Hmmm....I guess I'll have to wear the watch only in private.

But this is an interesting discussion. The concept of branding to me has always been intriguing, I think because it is so ephemeral. Most companies can produce about any quality product that they want. They are "integrators" like TAG Heuer, who just have the components made to their specs and them put them together. Quality is essentially a business decision. So looking at TAG from a purely business perspective, there is no a priori reason why they couldn't make a very nice watch. But look at TAG as a brand instead of a business, and you get all kinds of baggage. I guess that's the difference between the watch as "a physical object with certain properties" and the watch as "what it means" both to you and to others.

///M

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There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." --Dave Barry

Hamilton and Oris are generally priced lower than Tag (as an overall range) so value certainly factors in.

There is an element (I think) of the type of person who wears a Tag, it's kind of like Rolex in that a lot of people know the name and people who aspire to a 'nice' watch but can't afford a Rolex go for Tag by default because it's a known brand.

Funny, I was talking with my little brother (aged 24) who knows very little about watches. I asked him to name two prestigious and great watch brands and he answered TAG Heuer and Rolex. Same thing when I discuss with any non-watch enthusiasts. TAG brand recognition is very high. Zenith is an old, traditional and very respected brand but I doubt general people have ever even heard about it.

At least in Europe TAG has very good image among the young people. I think it's definitely a WIS thing to hate TAG.

Just my 2c.

I actually saw the same watch when I was visiting an AD last week Mofongo and while it's not something I'd wear i.e. I'm not in love with it, I actually found I liked it.

Interesting too that Zenith and Tag have so much in common, another thing I did now know

The whole Tag debate is very interesting. I honestly believe they make good watches albeit mostly at a lower price point than other more 'high end' luxury brands. However I wouldn't necessarily include the entire Tag range in that statement as the Carerra line for example, at north of $3,000, competes with the lower end of Breitling and Omega quite nicely. I'm not a big fan of a lot of the Tag range but the Carerra's have always interested me. You also certainly can't fault their marketing initiatives or targetted market as they do very well! Your comment on Tag owners vs the Tag brand itself is certainly well presented and in my opinion, hints at the crux of the matter quite nicely namely Tag might be a victim of its own advertising success in selling to what we call 'undersirables'.

A friend of a friend has something like 10 high end watches with, I think, 3 Breitlings (2 Navi World's at the least) and several Tag's of the more high end. I personally can't fault him there.

I hope you get it if it feels right for you!

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Happines is Good Health and a Bad Memory.
"Ingrid Bergman"