The Breitling Watch Source Forums

This thread is like just about anything in life : people do things, like things, and buy things for all sorts of different reasons. No-one is necessarily right and no-one is necessarily wrong..... it's all just opinions.

Personally as the years have gone by, what makes a watch tick has become much more important to me than it once was....... which is why I won't be buying another Breitling until the B01 movement ends up in a case that I like. To use the car analogy, I personally wouldn't pay Ferrari money for a Ferrari with a 1.2 litre Ford engine in it.

Hublot and AP make some fine looking pieces with some great detailing and finishing, but for that kind of money I want something unique on the inside as well. Just my opinion of course.

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Driver8

Site Moderator

Without meaning to hijack the thread, I'm not quite sure your car analogy is entirely fair, D8.

A 1.2L Ford engine is generally designed around being cheap and tough, rather than complicated or refined in any way. A generic movement like an ETA, whilst found in a lot of different watches from different brands and not as "special" or exclusive as an in-house movement, is a pretty decent piece of engineering. It's not as if a Hublot or an AP has a budget movement aimed at people who don't care about a watch's performance.

Maybe Ferrari with a Chevy V8 would have been a better analogy...?

Edit - in case I'm about to get hate mail from irate Chevy V8 owners, please note that I have one in my own car.

Absolutely, ultimately people will determine what to them is worth it. Many people would scoff at spending the money on a Breitling, but because we thoroughly enjoy them we find it reasonable, and as you said no one is wrong or right, simply what one wishes to do.

I do agree with you about the importance of movements, as the sheer mechanical brilliance of any quality watch impresses me, and is part of the reason I like them so much.

I suppose with your car analogy it can be used both ways to justify a Hublot or AP or give good reason to not buy one. I will say this though (going with the car theme): a Pagani Zonda is an absolutely amazing vehicle. Sure, it costs an absurd amount of money, but it is entirely handmade and its carbon-fiber monocoque and virtually everything else carbon is something exemplary. Pagani does not make the motor though, it uses the MB 6.0L V12 which they fine tune and specify to the cars needs.

In the same way many people appreciate the beauty of a Hublot externally but would not buy one because of its movement, I think the movements in Pateks are world-class, but their rather bland aesthetics turns me off. I guess it is a good thing that some many fine watches are made because no one likes the same thing. In the end I guess all of them are great at what they do and as such command respect.

OK Otto, I concede that maybe the Ford engine comparison was perhaps a little harsh, but it was just an analogy to serve as an example of something that might look beautiful on the outside but maybe a little "underspecced" on the inside, especially in light of the price. But then the value/price ratio is such a personal thing anyway. For me, that ratio is too low for me to consider buying an AP or a Hublot. However, for others it may be fine. It all depends on what people look for.

Just to be clear, I'm not knocking either brand for their looks or quality or anything like that : I just personally expect a little more movement-wise for that amount of cash, so as a result I look elsewhere.

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Driver8

Site Moderator

That's why they use a MB engine, to justify, in part the absurd price tag. It would have a much less pricier tag if it used a BMW engine. Which, by the way, are much better engines (as proven so many times by the International Engine awards etc.) for 2/3s of the price.

The same for Hublot. Imagine if they could use a B01 Caliber for their watches. They would charge 10-times the price Breitling does.

But if people keep buying them, then why not? Thanks to them Mr. Biver lives in a Château, near Montreux.

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- This is Ghost Rider requesting a fly-by. - Negative Ghost Rider. The pattern is full.

Not to get too far off topic but that is a ridiculous assessment...

In the Pagani, the MB-sourced motor is the LEAST desirable part of the car. If I recall correctly the Pagani Zonda F costs around $750,000, and some don't even have base coat on them. The motor isn't really an MB motor, they use the block and just freestyle it from there to make it work for them. They are amazing cars, some of the best, if not the best supercars made, I suggest you take a look at them a little longer and then you will know why they cost so much, it transcends a MB motor.

The same goes for Hublot; they are putting an in-house movement in their watches in 2011 I believe (who knows if it will happen) but for a company that only started to produce top-notch watches in the early 2000's I would say that is not too long of a time, Breitling has been in business since 1884 and is now coming out with the B01. You are right though, if they are selling watches they won't lose any sleep over not having the best movements.

A Ferrari with a Ford engine and Toyota pedals and floor mats! All while wearing a TOYWATCH.lol

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SA-Baton White Dial/ProII
Tissot Le Locle

That's because their sales are essentially based on design. I wonder how many Hublot buyers really know what is the mecanism in their watch. They just buy it because it's "in", it's design and, many, solely because of the price. However, price alone does not make a good watch. Neither does a good car. Even if it is, mainly, hand-made.

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I fail to see the connection here. If their sales are mainly based on cosmetic appearance then why would they see any need to design an in-house movement like they are? Whilst I agree a watch costing that much should have an in-house or quasi in-house movement I do not think it is reasonable to expect a watch manufacturer to come out with an in-house movement so quickly, perhaps I am wrong but a few years of using modified movements then switching to in-house is not a bad time frame. I would bet the amount of Hublot owners who know what is in their watches is much more percentage wise than Breitling owners, as Hublots will attract mainly those looking keep up with the watch trends or someone who appreciates craftsmanship.

I agree a high price does not make something good, but how often do you see something good with a low price? Yes, a decent Hublot is $20K, and a Pagani is $750K, but something costing less being better is a rarity.

That is exactly what I am saying. Hublot buyers go mostly by trend, not especially technology. And once the "à la mode" effect will pass, sales will drop. No wonder that Mr. Biver already sold the company.




I do not quite agree. Just look over to south Bavaria. Then again, at $750K, the Pagani is almost in its own league.

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I know that is what you are saying and I do not see the logic. If buyers do not care about movements in general and Hublot has no problem selling watches (they move about 2000/month I think), then wouldn't coming out with an in-house movement be an unnecessary investment for them? They are coming out with an in-house movement as far as I know, so what is it that you are saying (not being rude I just do not know what point you are trying to make).

I do not want to carry on the car conversation since this is a watch forum but I not see BMW or any car company for that matter making something that surpasses the Zonda F for a lower price.

Exactly what Roff says. But maybe I didn't express it as clearly as he did.

And between "announcing" an in-house movement and actually putting in on the market, well, it will take them a while. Heck, it took Breitling 5 years! And as it was said elsewhere in this forum, prices will then be increased ten-fold, as if they weren't already exagerated.

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I can see the issue with Hublot and the base-ETA movement used, to me it isn't that huge of a sticking point but I understand why it is to many. What I do not get is grouping AP into the same category. I guess this is in regards to what Roff said earlier but I do not see how an AP uses a "generic swiss movement", I don't believe the JLC movement used previously or their in-house movement with a DD Chrono module makes it a generic movement that looks pretty.

I think that overall quality tends to get undercut when it comes to movement discussions. Sure, an AP is expensive because of the level of finishing on the case and all the little details, but besides the movement what else is there on the watch? If you look at an AP they go to extensive lengths to make the case/dial/bezel/etc perfect, not just making it without flaw, making it perfect. That has to also have some intrinsic value knowing that a person, and not some machine, toiled to make your watch excellent.

Sure they go to extensive lengths to make the watch perfect (which it is) because having a generic movement how else could they justify the high price?

Hence, the MB/BMW comparison. Nowdays, enginewise, BMW is light years ahead from MB who only offer an overpriced car just because of the "star" on the bonnet.

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- This is Ghost Rider requesting a fly-by. - Negative Ghost Rider. The pattern is full.

I guess this is the part I am having a hard time understanding, because they do not have some generic movement. How is the AP 3120 movement generic? And the Offshores have the same movement, just with a DD Chrono Module (which could be better but I won't complain) thus making it the 3126 (a 3120 offshoot). Whilst Hublot uses an ETA based movement, I can't see how one can claim the AP's have generic movements.

The MB/BMW comparison does not make sense though. Do you buy a car just based on the motor? Maybe the 6.0l BMW V12 is better than the MB 6.0l V12, but is a 760Li better than an S65, absolutely not, and that cannot be argued, it may do some things better, but as a luxury car there isn't a comparison. With the car, so much more is involved than the motor, and so it a watch and it's movement. Is an M6 a good car, sure, can it be compared to the CL65, no, because there are more aspects than simply the engine. Even if it is faster than the CL65, that does not make it better, the package as a whole should be evaluated and sometimes it is an apples to oranges relationship. I think the whole car metaphor is a weak one beyond the idea of a motor being a movement.

I think we must just have a difference of opinion, which is fine. I do not wish to argue because I feel your concerns are valid, I just have some difficulty understanding this whole dialectic of movements in your interpretation.