The Breitling Watch Source Forums

I would like to learn more in regard to movements various brands use in their watches, but it is like looking for a needle in a haystack. It becomes increasingly difficult in trying to determine which brands employ in-house movements vs modified ebauches due to the re-branding of these movements that many employ. Also information regarding what grade ebauche they utilize and the depth to which these various companies actually modify these movements seems non-existent. I am aware that several companies off the top of my head employ to a greater degree in-house movements or even exclusively in some cases, while others mainly utilize modified ebauches and produce maybe 1 or more in-house movements within their lines. I'm sure that since this information is likely to be of a more proprietary nature, this is why it is difficult to find this type of information. The line also becomes further blurred with the behind the scenes ownership and relationships (IE; AP and JLC or Swatch Group & and their many companies).

The reasons a person collects watches is very diverse and based on personal preferences or other strategies as listed below:

aesthetic reasons
vintage pieces
brand specific pieces
In-house movements
Style (IE; Divers, Dress, Skeleton, Pocket Watches, etc)
Limited Editions
Unique One Offs
Case Material (IE; Gold)
And a combination of any of the above of which I'm sure there are many more I failed to include

As for myself I fall into the latter category as I'm sure most of us do, but with the goal in mind of expanding my knowledge base it would be interesting to learn what companies are actually considered a Manufacture d'horlogerie (French term for a watch factory which itself produces the components (particularly the "ébauche") needed for the manufacture of its products) vs. Établisseur (French term for a watch factory which is engaged only in assembling watches, without itself producing the components, which it buys from specialist suppliers). I'm sure just by the nature of the beast that 95% or more probably fall into this latter category.

Many of you more knowledgeable folks are such a well spring of information on this subject, but where did you acquire this? Is there a source or sources that can provide more enlightenment on this subject? I'm sure that many of us less informed would love to learn more on this subject with specificity given to various brands and so forth.

I did find one interesting article that some of you may find of interest that touches on this subject entitled On the Ebauche Tradition

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The problem with defining a list of manufactures is that you first have to distinguish what constitutes a manufacture.

The concept of having an in house movement is all well and good, but what makes it in house? If you produce a movement that was designed specifically for you and then you produce all of the pieces and assemble the movement then you are clearly a manufacture, but what if you outsource some of the parts?

That then becomes a fine line - do you have to produce your own screws to be considered a manufacture? To me that seems a little silly.

What about a balance? That's tougher because it's integral to the movement, but very few manufactures produce their own hairsprings.

What about tourbillons - it's a staple of haute horlogerie and is evidence that a company has 'made it' as a high end manufacture, and yet all tourbillons are produced by about 7 organizations, most of whom are not watchmaking firms (except for one or two pieces a year as showcases) - they just anonymously produce tourbillons for the big guys to include in their 'in house' movements (Incidentally, until this year, Cecil Purnell which prides itself on being 100% tourbillons used Chinese tourbillon cages in their Swiss watches!).

There is no standard definition so it becomes a very difficult discussion to have.

Ok so for the sake of discussion, let's qualify this as companies that produce their own ebauches or in-house movements with specificity given to brands, calibers, and models you know of. It was not intended as a subject to pick to apart with factors such as; do they make their own screws or hairsprings. Frankly I agree that to consider such things as screws would be mundane and as you pointed out, many do not make their own hair springs. Here again I ask this for sake of edification, so that those of us less informed can take these things into consideration when making a decision on a certain piece or brand. Since this type of information is so hard to find, I felt it would be an interesting topic of discussion. It would be of particular benefit to discuss those that fall in the more "Affordable" price bracket. I realize "Affordable" is subjective, but to qualify it let's say with a MSRP of $15k and less. The fact is that generally speaking, most people are not willing or can not afford to drop $20k or more on one piece. So for the sake of discussion let's keep it real.

The other point to this discussion was to discuss to what extent various brands modify their movements, do they just buy an ETA, Lemania, or JLC and then case it up or to what degree do they actually modify it. Are the changes they make purely for aesthetic purposes or do they actually improve the movements function-ability, reliability, and performance?

With the change in direction of Swatch group in providing their products as has previously been discussed, there is going to be a move towards more development of in-house versions of these movements since the patent rights has run out. So what is folks opinions in this regard when companies produce their own versions of these products, does this in your opinion qualify it to be deemed In-house or not?

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And not trying to be difficult, but just so we understand the minefield............

You say "ebauches or in-house movements" - those are very different things, so which is it? An ebauche excludes:

1) Mainspring
2) Mainspring barrel
3) Escapement including balance

Therefore there are more in house ebauche manufactures than there are in house movement manufactures.

Additionally, there are companies that own other companies that produce movements, either entirely or through a majority interest. In some cases we will consider those in house - Breitling's in house movement was produced by Kelek which has been acquired and integrated, in other cases we wouldn't consider them in house - put an ETA movement in a Breguet and there would be an outcry but the corporate ownership is the same.

This may sound like semantics, but it becomes important when we start lumping manufactures together - Rolex produce virtually everything themselves so you could argue that they need to be separated from Graham who have a single in house calibre where many of the parts were outsourced - they are both manufactures in the sweeping generalisation, but they are very different and if the point is to become an educated buyer in choosing pieces based on in house or not then it's an important distinction to understand.

These days, virtually all of the 'major' luxury brands have in house movements for at least part of their range - Rolex, JLC, IWC, Panerai, Omega, Breitling, etc and of course the high end guys like Patek and Breguet.

Coming up with a full list of watches is difficult, it's easy to come up with a list of in house calibres and one of the best sources is the Wristwatch Annual that lists most of the brands and both watches and movements that they produce.

Ahh first off thank you for the lead on the Wristwatch Annual...that would be of great benefit.

Secondly I realize I was being very broad in my terminology usage of ebauche vs in-house movement and I understand the difference thanks to you and others here on BS. It would be my assumption that if a company produced ebauches, then it would also stand to reason that for their own lines they would develop those ebauches into full blown in-house movements with the production of the other essential parts. Would this be a correct assumption and if so what companies do this?

On the other hand it is my understanding that the watch companies that purchase ebauches then finish them with either outsourced (most likely) or in-house parts. If the final parts are manufactured in-house in order to complete an ebauche would this qualify them as an "In-house" movement? If I understand the lay of the land correctly it does not.

And since you made that distinction between Rolex and Graham, does the fact that Graham outsources these manufacturing processes in any way detract from the allure of their in-house caliber and if so why?

This entire industry seems fraught with everybody sharing parts n pieces, then waving a magic wand over it and calling it their own. Yes some go to great pains and labors in reworking completed movements enhancing their performance qualities and reliability. While others pretty much just decorate the rotor, scribble their name & logo on it and then slap a hefty price tag on it. So in that sense I was wanting to navigate through this "Mine Field" in a more educated manner.

I agree that the lines of distinction can become rather blurred in many cases and in some cases it can be perceived as a matter of semantics. Sheesh! why can't they make this easy?...LOL.

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Well, we talk about buying ebauches, but in reality most will buy chablons - full movement kits. Some will replace balances (mainsprings / barrels are not really a differentiator), but generally with outsourced ones. Similarly, it's a brave assumption to assume that manufactures will automatically move from producing ebauches to producing movements - there is little advantage to be had in producing your own mainsprings, although barrels may make sense because 'stock' barrels may not work. In terms of the balance, that can be a key differentiator, but it's also one of the hardest parts to produce so there is often a reliance on 3rd party experts - especially for the hairspring.

This was a list compiled from WUS a couple of years ago, so its neither complete, nor up to date. It should give a decent starting point though.

A. Lange & Söhne
Audemars Piguet
Ball Watch Co+ (ETA)
Blancpain
Breguet
Breitling+ (ETA)
Chopard* (ETA)
Citizen/Miyota
Eterna (3030, new)
Frederique Constant*
Glashütte Original
Girard Perregaux
Grovana Revue Thommen
H. Moser & Cie (HMC 321.503)
IWC* (ETA)
Jaeger-LeCoultre
Longines+ (ETA)
Nomos (Tangomat, cal. ZETA)
Omega+ (ETA)
Orient
Panerai* (P.2002, ETA, JLC)
Patek Philippe
Poljot+ (ETA)
Prim
RGM
Rolex
SeaGull
Seiko
Ulysse Nardi+ (ETA)
Vacheron & Constantin
Vostok
Vulcain
Wempe
Zenith

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-RJ