Here are some larger pics provided by the OP. Definitely the dial is a redo but nothing to suggest the watch had any other brand name anywhere.
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| Breitling Geneve Chronograph what do you think ? https://www.breitlingsource.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=53619 |
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| Author: | steve01 [ Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Breitling Geneve Chronograph what do you think ? |
Hi, i'm considering a Breitling Geneve Chronograph, 18kt Gold, Venus 188 1953/54 Serial 842*** It has a gold outer case Metal stamped inner Metal stamped on the rim around the movement I'd really appreciate any expert opinions p.s please ignore the small gold watch in the photo - swiss 188-1900 unless you'd like to hazard a guess at the maker |
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| Author: | WatchFred [ Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Breitling Geneve Chronograph what do you think ? |
steve01 wrote: Hi, i'm considering a Breitling Geneve Chronograph, 18kt Gold, Venus 188 1953/54 Serial 842*** It has a gold outer case Metal stamped inner Metal stamped on the rim around the movement I'd really appreciate any expert opinions p.s please ignore the small gold watch in the photo - swiss 188-1900 unless you'd like to hazard a guess at the maker no pics - but watch isn't a Breitling. "Metal stamped inner" tells us enough. |
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| Author: | vintage [ Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Breitling Geneve Chronograph what do you think ? |
Looking at the pics it looks consistent with a 1954 Cadette to me (serial #842***). 1185 is in the book as a Venus 188 which it has. Pics are too small for me to tell if the dial has been redone or not. There were some 18k 1185's. With everything else being within the realm of possibility maybe we need to relook at just routinely dismissing because of the dust cover? I'd be just hesitant to trash it just because it has a dust cover. A lot of dial variations from this period and some case reusing. If the OP had just not shown a pic of the dust cover would we still dismiss it? |
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| Author: | steve01 [ Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Breitling Geneve Chronograph what do you think ? |
It says geneve on the dial, no mention of cadette sorry about the pics i had difficulty reducing them in size to meet the 200kb / 100pixel limit here Thanks for your replies |
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| Author: | vintage [ Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Breitling Geneve Chronograph what do you think ? |
steve01 wrote: It says geneve on the dial, no mention of cadette sorry about the pics i had difficulty reducing them in size to meet the 200kb / 100pixel limit here Thanks for your replies They didn't all say Cadette. I forget when the move for Breitling was but it was around that time. Also around that time when the 'B' was added to the crown. Of course if the dial has been done it wouldn't be original anyway. |
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| Author: | WatchFred [ Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Breitling Geneve Chronograph what do you think ? |
OP has edited the post and the pics are visible now, but I stand by my first reaction, dial is clearly refinished - case is a "run of the mill" Chronographe Suisse. Fake. Paul - are you sure 1185 is a correct ref. no. - not in Richter, not in any catalog, I have never seen one iirc ? I have seen 18k mid range chronographs of the 11xx Cadette/Sprint line, all were as massive as the Premier 18k cases, can't imagine Breitling would use a low end "tourist chrono" case and have never seen one that didn't have other issues too, just like this one. |
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| Author: | vintage [ Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Breitling Geneve Chronograph what do you think ? |
It's in Richters book under calibers used. It's not the first 1185 I've seen. You have better eyes than me if you can tell much from those pics. I asked the op to send me some full size so I can get a better look. I can post those if he does. It's just during the 1952-54 timeframe we have had examples of some pretty weird watches including reissues of older Breitling cases done in the 1940's. It's obvious to me something was going on during this period and there was a scramble for cases for certain models. Lots of Swiss manufacturers helped themselves out by flogging movements and cases to other manufacturers. A Franc was a Franc and it didn't much matter where it came from. This makes the second or third 18k I've seen with the correct movement, correct hands, correct serial numbers and reference numbers, but has a dust cover. All were from this time period. Discounting the dial might have been redone, like any other old Breitling, the possibility that Breitling may have actually sold a few of these seems a possibility to me since perhaps finding 18k case suppliers wasn't that easy and expensive. Now we have seen other manufacturers that use the same reference and serial number sequencing as Breitling from this period but not with the 18K pieces and not without having there own name inscribed usually on the inside of the back cover. |
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| Author: | steve01 [ Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Breitling Geneve Chronograph what do you think ? |
Interesting point to make The dust cover amd the caseback have different reference numbers one ends 3 the other ends 5 also the person selling also had a Cadette of the same period for sale I wonder if its possible a few parts have been mixed up ? |
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| Author: | Roffensian [ Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Breitling Geneve Chronograph what do you think ? |
Missed most of the fun on this, but I still need convincing that a double caseback is ever correct. |
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| Author: | vintage [ Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Breitling Geneve Chronograph what do you think ? |
Here are some larger pics provided by the OP. Definitely the dial is a redo but nothing to suggest the watch had any other brand name anywhere.
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| Author: | Roffensian [ Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Breitling Geneve Chronograph what do you think ? |
I still don't like it - that bridge looks wrong in that photo. |
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| Author: | vintage [ Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Breitling Geneve Chronograph what do you think ? |
Roffensian wrote: I still don't like it - that bridge looks wrong in that photo. That's pretty standard engraving on the Venus 188 but probably easy to copy.  
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| Author: | Roffensian [ Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Breitling Geneve Chronograph what do you think ? |
It's not the style, it's the quality - the G looks 'squeezed' to fit for example. |
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| Author: | vintage [ Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Breitling Geneve Chronograph what do you think ? |
Roffensian wrote: It's not the style, it's the quality - the G looks 'squeezed' to fit for example. Probably some poor minion had done 150 of them that day and it was quitting time and he wanted to go home. 
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| Author: | steve01 [ Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Breitling Geneve Chronograph what do you think ? |
Thanks for all of your input. I think taking a balanced view the watch is probably correct. I've looked long and hard all over the internet - this is more fun than sleep, and have found the evolution from Breitling chronographs marked just 'Breitling' in the 1940s Through to the 'Geneve' models of the 50s including many examples marked 'Geneve/Cadette' - continuing into the early 60s I think if the dial had Cadette on it - as it probably did before the refurb/replacement and i throw the dust cover away , most of you would be happy its a 1954 Cadette, which ironically would make it more valuble than the geneve its looking like. I think to decry a watch because it has an additional dust cover as oposed to having missing or incorrect parts is a little too puritanical - maybe someone thought it was a good logical idea - when you think about it - it would have made sense for them all to have dust covers. I think the main question remaining is did Breitling ever release any Cadettes without the word cadette on them just 'Breitling Geneve', if so i'll leave the dial alone , if not if anyone knows of a genuine replacement dial for this model please get in touch. Especial thanks to Paul for his real research , balanced by the experience and opinions of others here. |
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