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Breitling 40´s
https://www.breitlingsource.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=40113		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Tommy_PP [ Fri May 25, 2012 11:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Breitling 40´s
Hallo,
I need your help. I am interested in this Breitling 40´s with Venus - http://aukro.cz/breitling-chronograf-na-opravu-35-mm-i2371938646.html What do you think about condition and originality? How much money repairs will cost approximately? Thank you

Tom
Author:  WatchFred [ Sat May 26, 2012 12:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Breitling 40´s
looks like a correct ref. 171, very late 30s, very early 40s.

can not really tell you how much restauration will cost, as my Czech is a bit weak,
but seems to be sold "for repair", so no idea what might be wrong with the
movement. cosmetic restauration can be from "leave as is" to endless,
depends what you want to achieve.

resale value of acceptable/nice pieces is around €500, so judge/act accordingly.
Author:  Kailex [ Sat May 26, 2012 2:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Breitling 40´s
All numbers (serial and reference) are faked, too big and too regularly in line.
Author:  vintage [ Sat May 26, 2012 3:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Breitling 40´s
Kailex wrote:
All numbers (serial and reference) are faked, too big and too regularly in line.


Agree.
Author:  Roffensian [ Sat May 26, 2012 5:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Breitling 40´s
vintage wrote:
Agree.


Likewise, but that's all that I see wrong - the watch itself looks OK.
Author:  Bill in Sacramento [ Sat May 26, 2012 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  This is important
Here we have an example for which an important conclusion is needed.

1) Either this is an original piece with an unusual application of model number inside the caseback. I know of no other authentic example. But, the dial shows appropriate age and an authentic-looking script "Breitling."

2) This is another demonstration of a faker applying an authentic-looking script "Breitling" to an otherwise aged dial, and then dummying up a caseback.

3) It's an original dial on another watch, for which the model number has been added.

I firmly favor option #2, since I have been making that observation more and more. I think there is a workshop that is steadily doing this as a cottage industry. I say "authentic-looking," since I think it impossible to completely sure if one can only examine images.
Author:  WatchFred [ Mon May 28, 2012 5:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: This is important
Bill in Sacramento wrote:
Here we have an example for which an important conclusion is needed.

1) Either this is an original piece with an unusual application of model number inside the caseback. I know of no other authentic example. But, the dial shows appropriate age and an authentic-looking script "Breitling."

2) This is another demonstration of a faker applying an authentic-looking script "Breitling" to an otherwise aged dial, and then dummying up a caseback.

3) It's an original dial on another watch, for which the model number has been added.

I firmly favor option #2, since I have been making that observation more and more. I think there is a workshop that is steadily doing this as a cottage industry. I say "authentic-looking," since I think it impossible to completely sure if one can only examine images.



Bill, you have summed up the possible conclusions quite perfectly, although I firmly tend towards option #1.

we do not have enough of these very early marked pieces for comparison, but too much seems correct here.

hands, dial, unmarked movement, case, external caseback without any of the typical faker's added logos. many of these early pieces do have serial and ref. inside the caseback, stamping varying apparently from one case manufacturer to the other, no established standards yet in the late 30s, markings had just begun.

am at our weekend home without access to my picture database, but seem to remember similar examples.

and the main question: why ?

why fake a massively deteriorated dial, put no logo on the movement and the caseback, add a period correct ref. and serial - i.e. make it attractive for the miniscule minority that knows - or thinks to know- how the stamping should look, and not to the vast majority of buyers, looking for those nice triple-signed-dial-as-new pieces listed daily ? and sell it for spares or repair on an obscure Czech auction site ?

firmly option 1 for me, adding to the knowledge base.
Author:  Bill in Sacramento [ Mon May 28, 2012 7:58 am ]
Post subject:  Good discussion points.
Next time we do this, we should be in a heurigen. Beer or wine, my treat.

I see your point. The hand set does match an authentic 170-series Breitling, but that case is definitely not Breitling. I think the dial and hands are from a more typical late-1940s 171 Breitling, mostly because of the size of the script "Breitling" on the dial. As I look at it more, though, maybe the script isn't so big, it's difficult to tell from just the one image. Whatever the case, it's a mid-1940s dial at the earliest. That moves me to position #3. [Well, I'm on the fence for now.]

As for how the dial and maybe the movement got into a new case, we can't know unless someone tells us. This line was listed as "low-priced wrist chronographs" (to quote the 1946 catalog) with base metal cases, which did not stand up to rough wear. I can easily see a Czech watchmaker transferring the good bits to a different case and marking it with the old reference number.

Let's invent our own story. My understanding is that in the 1950s in Czechoslovakia, much improvising had to be done to find watches. It is possible to find good quality Zenith, Longines, IWC and other pocket watch movements fitted in wrist watches for pilots. [Not to be confused with modern fabrications coming from the former Soviet bloc.] Every watch has its own story to tell, even if we can't know it.
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