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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:37 am 
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aleister wrote:
Well, hopefully they will make the case bigger just to make sure everything fits inside. ;)


Now we're talking ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:07 am 
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So, how would the Swatch Group's stance - and the excting rumour of a Breitling in-house movement - affect servicing/repairing for pre-2009 models in the future (i.e. will Breitling still be able to service and repair models with the modified Valjoux 7750 for the next 5, 10, even 50 years)?


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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:30 am 
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Roffensian wrote:
Will it result in a new Chronomat - that's up to Breitling, no reason for it to.


Of course that would be up to Breitling - but it would be very very sweet to get it. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:11 am 
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mister_mustard wrote:
So, how would the Swatch Group's stance - and the excting rumour of a Breitling in-house movement - affect servicing/repairing for pre-2009 models in the future (i.e. will Breitling still be able to service and repair models with the modified Valjoux 7750 for the next 5, 10, even 50 years)?


There are no problems with servicing. I'll try and explain, but I'm not an expert on Swatch's official stance, so apologies if I misspeak along the line......

Currently the movement companies within Swatch (ETA and Valjoux) sell ebauche movements to manufatcurers (I don't have a French keyboard but there's an acute accent on hte first 'e' and it's pronounced eh-boash). These are essentially 'kits' of the movements that watch manufacturers can then modify as they see fit.

There are generally three different versions of each movement, each produced to different tolerances - only the tightest tolerance is designed to be capable of meeting COSC specs and this is the version that Breitling buys.

Breitling then reworks some of the movement elements - either to im prove the tolerances further or to further decorate the movement (I believe that the movements are available from ETA / Valjoux either with cotes de Geneve or no decoration). In some cases Breitling will also replace movement elements with either Breitling produced or 3rd party sourced parts.

Starting in 2010 Swatch group has stated that they will no longer sell ebauche movements, they will only sell completed movements - in other words you buy the fully assembled movement without the ability to further work it. I don't know whether that means you have to have ETA / Valjoux decorate the rotor etc or whether Breitling would still be able to do that themselves.

This is bad news for many watch companies because it doesn't allow them to distinguish their watch - take the ETA 2892-A2 movement for example. This is designed to be a modular movement - it's made to have additional complications 'bolted on'. However, if ETA / Valjoux decide not to offer some of those options then the movement may no longer be available - maybe no more 30 second chrono on a Motors for example. Additionally, it also shifts quality control away from Breitling and to a 3rd party - you have to trust a supplier for the quality of your movement. Finally, it means that there is little differentiation between watches - no longer do they share the same base movement - they literally share the same completed movement.

When it comes to servicing, it's a slightly different story. There is no reason whay Breitling or their service network can't work on those movements any more than they do today, but what it will mean is that the OEM parts for that work will only be available from ETA / Valjoux.

Let's also understand that when we talk about an 'in house' movement, we aren't really talking about Breitling producing several thousand different parts and then assembling a few hundred into a movement. What we are talking about is a Breitling designed movement that is then assembled by Breitling from parts that are produced by Breitling or 3rd parties. In some cases they will likely still buy sub-assemblies - the escapement for example; in other cases they will likely produce the piece themselves - plates are an obvious example.

The comments on needing more 'size' for in house movements doesn't really make sense - Breitling doesn't need any help in working on tiny pieces, it's more a case of having an untested design - sure they'll go through all kinds of internal tests, but it's not the same as having the movement in watches in the real world. The relative case strength of the Chronomat will offer the movement more protection, and hence reduce stresses, than something like a Navitimer in the event that there are some inherent design problems in early versions. The Aeromarine range may be more rugged, but isn't really aligned with an in house movement which is considered to be more of a haute horlogerie element.

Sorry, long answer to a short question, but hopefully vaguely helpful.


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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:19 am 
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Extremely helpful - thanks!

I guess I was wondering if Breitling becoming a manufacture, which seems to be universally thought-of as a good thing, would have any down-side for those who bought Breitlings prior to the change. I'm not sure if watched ever do become so old that they're not serviceable anymore but it would be a real shame for those who want to keep a piece forever (or even pass it on to the next generation).

Thanks again.


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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:32 am 
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mister_mustard wrote:
Extremely helpful - thanks!

I guess I was wondering if Breitling becoming a manufacture, which seems to be universally thought-of as a good thing, would have any down-side for those who bought Breitlings prior to the change. I'm not sure if watched ever do become so old that they're not serviceable anymore but it would be a real shame for those who want to keep a piece forever (or even pass it on to the next generation).

Thanks again.


There's not really much chance that a mechanical movement will ever become obsolete - quartz definitely will (and already are), but I have never had a problem getting a vintage watch attended to for two main reasons - there are a huge number of parts available because of the number of movements made and there are many interchangable part. When you think about it they all need to take the same amount of time to move the hands so there is a lot of common gearing.

Additionally, with current pieces there are a lot of Valjoux 7750s, ETA 2892s etc available so parts will be easy to come by. There will undoubtedly be a time 50 or so years from now when some unusually decorated rotors will be harder to find, but the watch itself will never be 'unworkable'.

Mark Heist at Horological Services (the US Breitling authorised repairer / restorer of vintage Breitlings) can usually secure virtually all parts, and has the ability to fabricate pieces that he can't source.


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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:55 am 
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I have to revoke my anouncement about a chronomat with the manufacture movement. It is not yet certain, which chronograph will be with the new movement. But I expect, that by 2010, most chronographs of the Navitimer and Windrider series will have the new movement.
Breitling intends to produce about 50.000 movements per year!

There is a careful estimation, that the watches with the new manufacture movement will be about 20% above the momentary price.

The movement istself is supposed to have a very high reserve de marche of about 70h compared to about 45h in a Valjoux 7750.

BG
Thomas

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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:01 am 
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Excellent news Thomas!!!

50,000 a year is exceptional and a 20% lift is manageable - less than I expected, which probably speaks to the volume.

70 hour power reserve is also more where it should be and a true differentiator, it also gives them options with a second mainspring down the road to get to a 5 or 6 day power reserve.

Even better news that we are going to see this in multiple models in the next 12 months.


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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:22 am 
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Roffensian wrote:
Excellent news Thomas!!!

50,000 a year is exceptional and a 20% lift is manageable - less than I expected, which probably speaks to the volume.

70 hour power reserve is also more where it should be and a true differentiator, it also gives them options with a second mainspring down the road to get to a 5 or 6 day power reserve.

Even better news that we are going to see this in multiple models in the next 12 months.

I heartily second all of those comments! :thumbsup:

A 3 day (approx 70hr) in-house movement would/will be superb! And it's great news that it'll be a chronograph too as instrument watches are really what Breitling is famous for. I thought a chronograph is how they'd have to go anyway, but it's great to have it (semi)confirmed!

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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:39 am 
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Driver8 wrote:
it's great to have it (semi)confirmed!


The in house chronograph is 100% true - the only remaining details are what and when for the first.


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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:59 am 
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Roffensian wrote:
Driver8 wrote:
it's great to have it (semi)confirmed!


The in house chronograph is 100% true - the only remaining details are what and when for the first.

Excellent! :thumbsup:

(I know speculation is a terrible thing, but I really hope they stick an in-house movement in a Navi World case at some point, as that is my favourite Navi case and bracelet by miles.)

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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:31 am 
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I doubt, that there will be complications for the first year.

BG
Thomas

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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:36 am 
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Alien wrote:
I doubt, that there will be complications for the first year.

BG
Thomas


Unfortunately I agree - just a regular chronograph. Although that does allow me the delusion that they'll finally throw a DB on there to generate attention (please!!!)


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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:35 am 
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Yes, DB's would be fantastic! :lingsrock:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:08 pm 
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Hopefully we'll finally see then the new EVO with a day-date dial too - at least as an option! In a case not larger than todays EVO, or even smaller - down to 40 mm (at 39 mm there is the CC). And a larger version too - for those who prefer that - obviously not me...
I'm looking forward too seeing this. Regards: Robertus

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