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Breitling 765 AVI heirloom
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Author:  IslandKraut [ Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:22 am ]
Post subject:  Breitling 765 AVI heirloom
Aloha all,

First of all, I would like to say Mahalo to all of the contributors here, particularly Rene, Fred and Roff, as well as others who led me to close to 100 pages of instruction and reference about these magnificent watches.

Some of you will have seen this watch, as I have also posted on a couple other forums, before I stumbled across this one, where the entire vintage Breitling community appears to live.

So without further ado:

On a recent visit home, my father gave me his long time watch, a Breitling he bought used from his flight instructor in the 1960’s.
All the time I can remember, he wore this watch, so of course it shows the battle scars of 50 years of use.

It has a bit of service history:
Few years after he bought it used, presumably as a 765 AVI digital, my dad took it to a shop because the date function had stopped working.
The shop sent it off to s Breitling service center in Frankfurt, and they decided to replace the movement wholesale with the reverse panda version now installed.

They did return the base movement plate, dial and a few hands to him, but for reasons unknown, chose to glue them together with some sort of resin. (Shellac, epoxy, glue??)
So now I am proud owner of one rather wrecked 765 AVI panda and a few parts that hark back to what the watch probably looked like before.

Below are a few pictures if I can figure out how to do it

Now I have a few questions, some have evolved as a result of my research here:
1) I sense it make sense to invest in restoring the watch, evidently at the Heists, due to servicing also being required.
2) Is it possible to clean / restore either of the old dials and bring the watch back to the original style?
3) Can dials even be restored / freshened up?
4) Any chance that the watch is a fake? The movement looks correct and the case has a number that puts it to a 1960 chronograph.

A few details on the maintenance status of the watch:
• The watch runs and chrono functions work, including flyback. Fairly accurate, was about 15 seconds slow on a day
• Bezel slides without clicks and is overall rather loose (spring may be missing)
• Crystal is cracked and dull (seems like crystal replacement is the one welcomed modification)
• Both pushers are missing the button
• Crown stem is bent, and the crown is now broken off...
• Dial is tarnished and the lume is rather dark (is cleaning / bleaching possible?)
• The 15 min counter hand is consistently half a minute off (it appears the minute counts are not half minutes but full minutes???)
• The sub dial hands have fallen off but I was able to capture them in a plastic bag (That's why we aren't supposed to open the case...)
• The movement looks clean, but there are two holes suggesting missing screws, but then again I see that on other pictures.

So… with these conditions, I am sure I will have to contribute heavily to the Heist retirement fund

Now the real questions:
1) Should I have them polish the case? (it IS pretty beat up)
2) It appears to be possible to put the watch into one of three configurations: Which one is best?
a) Black digital (most difficult, as dial may be impossible to fix)
b) All black subdial (easiest restore according to Theresa)
c) Panda dial (if dial can be cleaned) may not match case / bezel (although I have found evidence that suggests otherwise)
3) How do you feel about reluming?
4) IF I choose to go with one or the other set of hands, what do you think the other set would be worth on the open market?

Many thanks for your advice!
Author:  IslandKraut [ Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Breitling 765 AVI heirloom
Ok... Pictures didn't quite work. I posted them on flickr:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/60932429@ ... 997757424/

With particular emphasis on the German catalog page below, which seems to explain why Trautmann decided to replace the digital minute counter with the subdial movement and panda dial. (Perhaps in an early disregard for vintage authenticity or simply for lack of parts, as the work was likely done after the sell off of classic Breitling)

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/60932429@N07/27780335505/in/dateposted-public/" title="Vintage breitling Catalog AVI"><img src="https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7707/27780335505_15279ba588_h.jpg" width="1031" height="1600" alt="Vintage breitling Catalog AVI"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

https://www.flickr.com/photos/60932429@ ... ed-public/
Author:  IslandKraut [ Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Breitling 765 AVI heirloom
Ooops - One more question:

To restore the black ink in the bezel or not? ...

Thanks!
Author:  WatchFred [ Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Breitling 765 AVI heirloom
minor issue; I tend to leave it untouched; but that is the only restoration step that can easily be reversed.
Author:  Dracha [ Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Breitling 765 AVI heirloom
my favorite kind of watches !
and many Q's so I'll try to answer them
oh, and welcome to BS ;-)


Now I have a few questions, some have evolved as a result of my research here:
1) I sense it make sense to invest in restoring the watch, evidently at the Heists, due to servicing also being required.

I doubt the Heists will have the black dial needed (with minute counter apeture) to do a full restoration , but you can always ask them , Mark and Theresa are very helpful if you send them all the pics

2) Is it possible to clean / restore either of the old dials and bring the watch back to the original style?
3) Can dials even be restored / freshened up?

I highly doubt that either of these dials can be saved/restored/frshened up to an acceptable level

4) Any chance that the watch is a fake? The movement looks correct and the case has a number that puts it to a 1960 chronograph.


its genuine , but switched around , the black dial should be in that case , not the black/white


So… with these conditions, I am sure I will have to contribute heavily to the Heist retirement fund

Ask them but expect a $1800-2000 restoration bill if they have the parts
IMO the watch is worth that though

Now the real questions:
1) Should I have them polish the case? (it IS pretty beat up)

I'd leave it up to them, but they do have the correct machinery to do it

2) It appears to be possible to put the watch into one of three configurations: Which one is best?

all black dial w/ date aperture window minute counter is the best , and the way this watch was born

a) Black digital (most difficult, as dial may be impossible to fix)

yes

b) All black subdial (easiest restore according to Theresa)

yes , comes out looking like this (see below)

c) Panda dial (if dial can be cleaned) may not match case / bezel (although I have found evidence that suggests otherwise)

found evidence 99% incorrect , beaded bezel case belongs to an all black dial (maybe, just maybe a transitional piece but evidence inconclusive)

3) How do you feel about reluming?

unless the relumer is extremely good , dont have it done

4) IF I choose to go with one or the other set of hands, what do you think the other set would be worth on the open market?

I'd pay very handsomely for those hands on that all black dial , as Ive been looking for them for a long time


Heist restored 765 AVI all black
Image
Author:  IslandKraut [ Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Breitling 765 AVI heirloom
Rene,

Thank you for the quick reply. I have a few follow up questions:

Fred's examples lead me to believe the black dial you show above is a redial. Of course I will readily admit that it is very beautifully done, BUT just doesn't look like the original (the 7 is not straight for example). I think it also makes it a rather common watch?

As for the panda dial, the German advertisement page from decades back seems to show a panda dial with the large lead 1-2-3-4-5... numbered bezel, so perhaps it is not all that wrong optically? (All the while admitting that the serial number doesn't match)

Thanks!
Author:  Dracha [ Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Breitling 765 AVI heirloom
Fred's examples lead me to believe the black dial you show above is a redial. Of course I will readily admit that it is very beautifully done, BUT just doesn't look like the original (the 7 is not straight for example). I think it also makes it a rather common watch?


Yes, its a redial , which is why I said "yes , comes out looking like this (see below)"
If you will let the heists restore it using an all black dial with 3 black subdials , it comes back looking like mine , I had mine restored there. I hope that clarifies ?


As for the panda dial, the German advertisement page from decades back seems to show a panda dial with the large lead 1-2-3-4-5... numbered bezel, so perhaps it is not all that wrong optically? (All the while admitting that the serial number doesn't match)
Thanks!


there is indeed a short period (transition) where they used 1-2-3-4-5-6- etc on the bezel instead of 2-4-6- etc with black/white dials , but this 1-2-3-4-5-6- etc bezel does not have the little beads that yours has , the 'beaded bezel' is exclusively used with all black dials , either the 3 subdial black dials or the 'digital' dials
Author:  IslandKraut [ Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Breitling 765 AVI heirloom
Dracha wrote:

If you will let the heists restore it using an all black dial with 3 black subdials , it comes back looking like mine , I had mine restored there.
I hope that clarifies ?


Yes, it does (and it isn't an all bad outcome to be honest). I am somewhat worried about the cost of a new dial, but I guess that is just the price of membership in the "project watch club"...

Dracha wrote:

there is indeed a short period (transition) where they used 1-2-3-4-5-6- etc on the bezel instead of 2-4-6- etc with black/white dials , but this 1-2-3-4-5-6- etc bezel does not have the little beads that yours has , the 'beaded bezel' is exclusively used with all black dials , either the 3 subdial black dials or the 'digital' dials


Thanks for the clarification. Using a previous post pictures, I thought 8 beads between 12 and 1 would mean it is a big bead bezel.
That then led me to believe that the panda and case would be perhaps a Germanic variation? (of course still wrong by original serial number)
Author:  WatchFred [ Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Breitling 765 AVI heirloom
strictly speaking, Rene's example above is a new "OEM Service Dial", manufactured and supplied by Breitling, a "redial" would normally be understood as a third party attempt at reprinting an original dial.
Author:  IslandKraut [ Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Breitling 765 AVI heirloom
Thank you, Fred!

It appears that the current as-is value is around 2-3k, but after some TLC, the watch could run for 6-8k with the service dial.
That doesn't sound like a bad investment.

It is just too bad that neither of the dials seem to be salvageable, which means I will lose some of the history.
Author:  WatchFred [ Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Breitling 765 AVI heirloom
I'd try to keep the originl digital dial if the Heists have the parts to restore that movement w/ that function ?
Author:  IslandKraut [ Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Breitling 765 AVI heirloom
Fred, that is indeed the plan. I personally bristle at the idea of them not returning the replaced parts, since I am of course paying for the new ones.
That said, I am told that the exchange may well be Breitling policy, and if I need to get a Service Dial, I may have to sacrifice one of the existing ones.
I just wonder how they deal with watch projects where some parts are entirely missing. (I can help with that in my case ;)
Author:  WatchFred [ Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Breitling 765 AVI heirloom
let me clarify: I'd try to re-install the original "digital" dial if the Heists can replace the missing movement components.
even w/ that current damage it will be the by far more valuable piece than a "service dial" repair.

I'm not even trying to understand the parts replacement and returns policies of Breitling; no apparent logic behind it.
Author:  IslandKraut [ Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Breitling 765 AVI heirloom
Thank you Fred. I do hope that is possible, as that dial is about the most damaged of them all, and that assumes that the goop can be cleaned off.
If that is indeed something like Epoxy, it is either go back to the panda dial history (at Rene's likely disgust) or go with the service dial and thus a "new look".
Author:  WatchFred [ Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Breitling 765 AVI heirloom
well, from the pics I have seen, the panda is impossible to save; worse than the black digital.
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