The Breitling Watch Source Forums

Had the opportunity to pickup this Co-Pilot. Did some research and found it confusing on determining the watch originality. the serial number dates it around 1969 but the case back and bezel installed look different than ones I've seen. Although there is a lot a variant in the types of case back and bezel installed on the AVI family. I found two references that gave me hope. Here it is.

Can you please post more pics ? , backside and inside please , with a visible view of the engravings on the backside and (partial) serial number ?

1969 would be strange as that would be a 7650 , which is larger than the 765
Also the bezel looks 'off' (Fred ?, 3rd we've seen in a very short period)

afaik the metal bezel was used from 62 to 65 , the black aluminium bezel from 65 to later

also the 'normal' metal bezel had dashes '-' instead of odd numbers and only arabics for even numbers

p.s. can you move the hour hand for the next pic please ?, I would like to see the hand for the 15 minute counter subdial

_________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Breitling and Boats. The rest I wasted" - mostly Elmore Leonard

Sure can,
I noticed the differences between the other references. You are right in the case is larger and thicker than my Unitime 1765. Case is thicker and turned down lugs are all larger. It wears higher on the wrist, all with a 22mm strap.

The case back show ref’ 7650. There is no AVI or Co-Pilot designation. I found an old Wakmann catalog with this model reference as a “Co-Pilot.” It shows the same white sub-dials and full numbers steel bezel. The numbers on the bezel looks like on the other AVI reference. see the pic. The serial 1278xxx which my lookup dates it to 1969 time frame.

The dial looks pretty much like an AVI/CoPilot model. Sub-dial layout, 15 sec large right sub at 3 and familiar hands. I notice that the SWISS is at the bottom of the dial and the tritium “T” is under the “6” on the 12 hour sub-dial (something I’ve seen on the 1765).

The movement looks like a Valjoux manual movement. It does shows the Wakmann's import branding.

3rd and first, René - this one in the larger diameter.
not a Valjoux, but Venus 178, though WOG is wrong for a 1969, so this one had quite a bit of work done during the years.
not too easy, but correctable, the crystal is wrong and misses the chrome tension ring; also the running second hand is a replacement.
interesting.

this is what I think :

-: its is a 7650 (no AVI or CP model denominator on the back, so 'just' 7650)
-: it has a service bezel (stainless steel) but originally was produced with a black aluminium bezel
-: the ad. you are showing above is from 1963 , or at least it is showing 1963 model watches (black white 809's and 806's with beaded bezels were made in 1963)
-: it is an original Breitling V178 movement but from an earlier watch (pre 67/68) as it has WOG , and original because it also has TJ , so not just the balance bridge was replaced

all in all extensive work was performed for whatever reason

_________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Breitling and Boats. The rest I wasted" - mostly Elmore Leonard

Thanks Rene and Fred,

This opens up a lot of questions for me.

So what I have here is a ref' 7650 (big case) dating from 1969. Movement is Venus 178 and has the known marking for Breitling and Wakmann movements although the movement's year wouldn't be correct for the case it is installed in. The movement's manufacturer year is earlier than what would be installed with at case with a 1278xxx serial number, but then again they could me using up old movements (call me optimistic) for this watch. At one time it was serviced at lease once (going by the service scratching on the inside case back) after sale. The servicing most-likely by a Wakmann service center or a watch repair person with access to those parts. Crown and pusher most-likely was not exchanged on its journey. During this period an incorrect crystal was installed for the case/model. Here is where I need to understand your comments. Was the movement and balance wheel assembled as a unit or the movement and balance wheel installed at different times with parts on-hand?

The case, case back, dial and hands are correct (except for the second hand) for the model. On to the bezel, you're saying it's a "service bezel" since it's not the standard black aluminium bezel or the two version (white or black) Yachting bezel, which would be completely wrong for the variant. Have you two come across another 7650 with this "service bezel?" I would like to compare the two even if it's only a picture. Nevertheless, I'm assuming since it's a service bezel, it is not incorrect to be on the 7650. It's just not factory standard.


Rene, thanks for your help with the catalog. I was wondering what year it was from.

So this is what I believe a correct 7650 looks like , inside and out with the serial number 1278066
(serial provided so you can compare how many yours is different from mine)













-: Aluminium Bezel
-: No WOG

for the rest yours looks ok (except the hand) , the reason why I think its a service bezel is ; 'ive never seen one before on an original 7650 and they have only very recently starting to surface both on 765 cases and now yours the 7650 , but since the 765 is much smaller than the 7650 , the 765 AVI Steel bezel woud have never fit the 7650 (unless, I am just thinking , its a 765 case with a 7650 back ?)' can you please measure the bezel with a caliper down to the 10th of a millimeter ? , I know you said it was as big as your 1765 , but we believe there are 2 sizes 1765 1 41mm and the other 42mm

anyway , the whole combination never existed originally IMO so I can only conclude, with the info I have at the moment, its a service bezel in steel , put on a 7650 case with a movement from an earlier watch (does the 15 minute counter work ? , or does it go around in 30 minutes instead of 15 ?)

_________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Breitling and Boats. The rest I wasted" - mostly Elmore Leonard

Damn, this is such a great feed. I just love reading how Rene and Fred (and others) go through their deduction process. Learn so much from this site.
And sorry, do not mean to detract or hijack the post!

And all y'all thought we 'just knew' ?

nahhh.. just common sense trying to piece everything together , going through most (all?) options to see which possible combinations there are .. on a 100% correct and well documented watches its easy , it becomes a lot harder when something isnt just right , then deducting what could have happened (or is happening)

_________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Breitling and Boats. The rest I wasted" - mostly Elmore Leonard

In comparing the 1765 and the 7650 I have, they are different sizes. The 7650 case diameter is 41 mm compared to the 1765 which is slightly smaller at 40mm. I was looking into your theory on swapping the case backs and bezel. I measured the case back between the two. The 7650 case back diameter is a 38.5mm versus the 1765 case back with a smaller diameter of 36.8mm. If the 1765 and 760 share the same 40mm case, then the 765 case back couldn’t be installed on the larger 7650 as you mention. For the bezel, the 7650 bezel measuring in at 41.11mm. There is also a slight case body difference in size. the 7650 coming in slightly larger.

I'm still questioning my own measurements I have taken and may not being rounding up correctly. If your watch is a 42mm and mine is the same case, then I may have the 42mm version. As you can see, the case is much larger than example 1765. Anyway.

Another difference in the 7650 case is that it is much taller. This makes the crown position sit lower down from the bezel. I compared it to your 7650 pictures and all is similar (case, dial, case back engravings, and markers) except the bezel of course.

The question on the “service bezel” and the inconsistency with the movement still is interesting…
Would it be possible for you to post a close up side view and a picture of the 765 metal bezel?

_________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Breitling and Boats. The rest I wasted" - mostly Elmore Leonard

the assumed service bezel is sitting incorrectly.
note that the 1765 existed (think Rene is off the fence too regarding this) in both 765 AVI/CP & 7650 sizes.

1953 case, 765 AVI: case dia 39.95, bezel dia 41.05, height@bezel 11.25
1963 case, 765 AVI: case dia 40.10, bezel dia 40.95, height@bezel 11.50
1965 case, 765 CP: case dia 40.20, bezel dia 41.00, height@bezel 11.50
1969 case, 7650: case dia 40.80, bezel dia 42.85, height@bezel 13.45
1969 case, 1765: case dia 40.70, bezel dia 42.55, height@bezel 13.45
1975 case, 7656: case dia 40.80, bezel dia 42.65, height@bezel 12.90

Not by my own choice but evidence is starting to add up and I cant ignore it anymore , so yes I am off the fence

_________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Breitling and Boats. The rest I wasted" - mostly Elmore Leonard

Thank you both.

Not sure which direction the evidence is adding up to?

Thanks again Fred for the measurements. My 7650 case diameter is 40.12 mm, bezel diameter 41.17 mm, couldn’t get a good measurement bezel height. I don’t think the caliber I have is very good. .

In comparison to Rene’s bezel pic, my has a similar structure as the one pictured, numbers engravings, coin bezel and properties of the smaller version. Bezel does look the part that Breitling would make for their CP model. Will eventually get the crystal and sec’ hand replaced, maybe then I can get better pictures and more info.

Other than what we have discuss, everything from the 15 minute counter works correctly and all the chrono functions.
...and one for the X-Files.

so we have a small case 7650, not a larger of the strange bezels.
x-files indeed.