The Breitling Watch Source Forums

Hi guys,

I was wondering if anyone could possibly give me any information on when Breitling actually stopped producing their own 'in house' movements? I believe this was some time in the 1950's?

A list of (or information on) vintage 'in house' movement numbers (both time-only and chrono) would also be really helpful if anyone happens to have something of this kind, or could maybe point me in the right direction to source the information myself?

Also, is it possible to accurately date a Breitling from its serial number?

Thank you for any help or advice, it is much appreciated

Russ

Breitling never had true inhouse movements, chronograph movements were "standard" Venus and Valjoux ebauche, though some of those were modified for specific Breitling models like the SuperOcean 2005; same applies to time-onlies sourced from Felsa, Peseux and more.

the closest to in-house was the cal.11/12 launched in 1969, where Breitling was part of the development consortium with Heuer, Bueren and Dubois-Depraz.

yes, it is possible to relatively accurately date the watches between the years 1944 and 1978, link is a sticky in the vintage section of this forum:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31437

Thank you for your reply, and the link to the serial number dating page.. that was very helpful.

The reason I thought that they used to produce their own 'in house' movement was due to a quote on a website called 'Unofficial Breitling FAQ' where they state as one of their FAQ's:

Does Breitling make its own movements?

Breitling stopped making in-house movements in the early 1950s. Since then, it has used movements from a number of manufacturers such as Venus, Lemania, ETA, Valjoux and Piguet. Kelek (which is owned by Breitling) develops modules for the base movements, some of which are exclusive to Breitling.

Is this statement not entirely correct?

Thank you

Russ

far from "entirely correct"

Thank you for the info.. you've been very helpful!

Russ

Hi Russ, do'nt let confuse yourself here.

Breitling has produced a lot of "in house" movements and holds numerous of swiss patents. Breitling was the greatest chronograph specialist and the inventor of the one-pusher chronograph and the two-pusher chronograph.

Until 1932, Breitling used exclusively own "in house" calibers.

Only Willy Breitling decided after 1932 to stop the movement production completely.

A lot of these calibers were further produced 1:1 identical of Valjoux. Landeron also later produced many identical movements continue, while Breitling after 1932 used in 80% of here watches Venus calibers, only very few Valjoux and some Felsa.

Many other watch companies used the early Breitling calibers.
The first Eberhard one pusher chronographs in 1915 had the 15.5" Breitling Montbrillant caliber,
even Rolex used early Breitling Montbrillant calibers, and many other watch brands also.

Russ; our forum troll, Mr. März (in his 10th or so incarnation "tomwak") has decided to join the discussion and add to the confusion.

I assume you did not ask for undocumented wild claims, but hard facts; the best article about the early Breitling movements is here: http://www.invenitetfecit.com/modeles/p ... tling.html in French, google translate here: http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... tling.html

There are several movements from the first decades of the 20th century that SEEM to be unique to Breitling, though based on ebauches, modules and modifications from Landeron Hahn, Lugrin, Droz, Dubois, Nicolet? and others - Breitling clearly was not a "Manufacture" who mass-produced complete movements in-house but an "Établisseur" who assembled the finished product, though some movement components MIGHT have been exclusive to Breitling; Breitling filed and received several patents related to chronograph movements, but none of the surviving documentation proves that these patents were ever applied in mass produced, exclusive movements - the rest is pure speculation.

If we define "in-house" as complete watch movements, designed and manufactured by the company that then assembles them into their branded watches, the first documented in-house movement is the Breitling B01, launched in 2011.

All the branded chronographs that you associate with the original Breitling that closed it's doors in the late 1970s are based on - sometimes modified - ebauches by Venus SA (calibers 150, 152, 170, 175, 178, 179, 184, 185, 188, 191), Valjoux (VZC/23C, VZHC/72C, 69, 72, 88, 724, 7730/31/33/36, 7740 & some I probably forgot), Landeron (39, 42) and the co-developed Chrono-Matics Cal 11/12/14/15.

Others will hopefully chime in to remind me of important facts I forgot to add, but delusions should have no relevance in this discussion.

Clearly my warning a couple of days ago didn't get through so action taken.

Russ, Fred's information is completely correct to the best of our collective knowledge on these things. Unfortunately the history is not well documented (even within modern Breitling) and we are always learning new things.

We also have to remember that until relatively recently movements were seen almost as 'necessary evils' by watch manufacturers - all companies outsourced movement manufacturing to 3rd parties so that they could concentrate on what was perceived as the important part of design and finishing. Most of the movement manufacturers formed a collective (Ebauches SA) to try and give themselves some kind of voice simply because their work was not valued.

Prior to 1932, when Lugrin/Lemania merged with Omega, Breitling used Lemania movements in their wrist timers. Thereafter, they used Landeron-Hahn movements for the most part until the Venus movements started to dominate.

Herbert Maerz believes Breitling made their own movements because in that era, watch companies sold complete sets of spare parts to retailers. When you look in the catalogs, like the one for 1946, you do see Breitling and Montbrillant logos on the pages. But those are catalog marks as part of the sales pitch to retailers to buy the line, including complete sets of spare parts for after-sales servicing.

The patents that Breitling acquired were for modifications of ebauches movements, and that is important innovation that should be noted. I'm no Swiss lawyer, so I wonder how it was that these patented innovations spread so rapidly to the other brands. You can easily see that of the face of it, it is implausible to believe that the rest of the Swiss watch industry used Breitling movements in the 1920s and 1930s.

Maerz/Tomwak/Etc. would have you believe every early Lemania movement was made by Breitling, but that is just one of the several frauds he perpetrates.

thanks for the clarifications, Bill; had hoped you would drop by !

Are you taking notes Mr. Whomever?

I was reading about the history of Breitling the other day, and it said that Breitling produced the first wristwatch chronograph and also that it developed the independent push piece then again developed the second push piece.

In a similar vein to this thread, I was wondering how this could be the case if Breitling didn't manufacture its own movements. Did they take another movement and add on all of these capabilities themselves? Or did some other company make the whole movement and Breitling was just the first one to put it in the case? Or does nobody know?

I read the previously posted article, but couldn't exactly tell from it, and I would be interested to hear what you guys think.

Breitling were at the forefront of a lot of chronograph firsts, and the exact details of how it came about aren't well documented. My assumption is that they worked with the movement manufactures to make the vision a reality, but the movement producers were all independent entities.