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| A Singer Chronomat? https://www.breitlingsource.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=48936 |
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| Author: | chronodeco [ Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | A Singer Chronomat? |
I have never seen one of these before but it looks like it might be the real deal??? http://www.ebay.com/itm/SINGER-VINTAGE- ... 354wt_1144 |
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| Author: | Roffensian [ Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A Singer Chronomat? |
Singer was a dial manufacturer so maybe one of their OEM style dials???? |
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| Author: | WatchFred [ Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A Singer Chronomat? |
third such ref. 769 I see, will try to find out more about the background. |
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| Author: | vintage [ Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A Singer Chronomat? |
I'm starting to think that Breitling did a few of these rebranded watches to help with sales. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Breitling-Kelbert-Chronomat-1940s-ref-768-/271242883220?pt=Wristwatches&hash=item3f2755f094&nma=true&si=iCuXkYsl6sISq0wQz%252BTp6Q1ny%252BU%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 |
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| Author: | saabreit [ Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A Singer Chronomat? |
WatchFred wrote: third such ref. 769 I see, will try to find out more about the background. Me too, I remember at least one ...from Sweden?... and pretty sure it is a very early Chronomat . I bought the watch . SN 484114 would date it 1942... When received I shall compare with my 1943 Chronomat . |
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| Author: | watchraptor2 [ Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A Singer Chronomat? |
here also a 100 % genuine Breitling Datora 799 with all original Breitling serial- and reference numbers, but signed with "Tourneau" http://www.ebay.de/itm/TOURNEAU-CHRONOG ... 35c51954c4 |
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| Author: | Dracha [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A Singer Chronomat? |
and with a non breitling (TXY?) US importcode, how can you say its a Breitling ? It does however raise some questions , are these Tourneau's used to build Breitling Datora fakes ? now that we have seen this one, should we question all Datora's with these 4 lines of numbers on the back ? or is consensus still that those are OK with 4 lines of numbers on the back and this tourneau was built by Breitling for Tourneau even though there's no indication ?   
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| Author: | Dracha [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A Singer Chronomat? |
saabreit wrote: Me too, I remember at least one ...from Sweden?... and pretty sure it is a very early Chronomat . Kronometer stockholm viewtopic.php?f=11&t=32076 |
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| Author: | Dracha [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A Singer Chronomat? |
pondering that tourneau '799' still and tossing some ideas around Why , if this was made by breitling, would breitling put TXY on their 'OEM' watches they make for tourneau and mark the bridge with 'tourneau' but would not mark their own watches with BOW/WOG and use unmarked bridges ? that doesnt make sense if tourneau was obligated to put their US import code on the watch , so would breitling . Also I can imagine breitling having a much larger number of '799' 's sold worldwide so they would definitely have the US import code on their watches ? taking it one step further still assuming the tourneau and breitling came out of the same factory , would they be made by an OEM like venus/valjoux and sold as 'blanks' to whom ever wanted them ? |
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| Author: | saabreit [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A Singer Chronomat? |
Dracha wrote: saabreit wrote: Me too, I remember at least one ...from Sweden?... and pretty sure it is a very early Chronomat . Kronometer stockholm http://www.breitlingsource.com/phpBB2/v ... 11&t=32076 Tx René, you are a Bible! |
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| Author: | saabreit [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A Singer Chronomat? |
Dracha wrote: and with a non breitling (TXY?) US importcode, how can you say its a Breitling ? It does however raise some questions , are these Tourneau's used to build Breitling Datora fakes ? now that we have seen this one, should we question all Datora's with these 4 lines of numbers on the back ? or is consensus still that those are OK with 4 lines of numbers on the back and this tourneau was built by Breitling for Tourneau even though there's no indication ? Tourneau , as one of the very big US watch retailers during the post WW2 period, was enough powerful to get branded watches, mabe from Breitling and probably from other watch factories . Nowadays, big retailers like Wempe are distributing "exclusive" models with double branding . In many segments, the branding policy is generalised and many products are personalised at very last step. It is true for cars, washingmachines , etc , and there are many examples of retailer brands . On this watch, no Breitling marking so there is no legitimity to call it Datora 799 in any way . It is exactly the same story than the Wakmann triple calendar , which have been abusively renamed - by the Sage - as " Wakmann- Gigandet - Breitling Datora , with prices x 5 . My opinion for this watch, but it is only my humble opinion, is based on the fact that before 1981 the swiss law about intellectual and industrial property was very laxist . 50 or 60 years ago, the business rules were the same , and it was just business . As Breitling was buying cases from a subcontractor , the subcontractor had an industrial right on cases , and he was free to sell similar cases to other customers . It was easy for a company like Tourneau to pay royalties to Breitling and get a swiss clone of Datora 799 directly from a swiss assembly factory , buying Tourneau branded parts from the same subcontractors used by Breitling ... In one hand it is just a classical way to do business , and in the other hand , consider that regarding the law of this period, it was not a problem . My concern is : no Breitling sign but double number - Breitling type and SN + Tourneau type and SN : why? Maybe for asseting royalties? |
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| Author: | Roffensian [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A Singer Chronomat? |
Agree absolutely, we know that this is a relatively common design of the era and no reason to believe that it is Breitling sourced vs. any of the others (or indeed from parts suppliers). Any suggestion of a Breitling connection is simply an attempt to inflate value. |
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| Author: | saabreit [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A Singer Chronomat? |
Roffensian wrote: Agree absolutely, we know that this is a relatively common design of the era and no reason to believe that it is Breitling sourced vs. any of the others (or indeed from parts suppliers). Any suggestion of a Breitling connection is simply an attempt to inflate value. I just come back to the original topic of this post, the Singer 769 looking like a clone of the Breitling Chronomat 769 . The context looks deeply different : according to the general aspect + caseback marking ( 769 + SN 484114 ) , it looks like a very early Chronomat production. Considering that Breitling launched the Chronomat in 1942 - maybe end 1941? - it was early in the product life to re- brand the watch . Movements used by Breitling were not signed , at the contrar of this one which is engraved Singer. Several questions to investigate : - maybe due to WW2 , it was necessary to comply with exportation rules to a specific country - or maybe due to a problem of patent in a specific country ? - Who was this Singer ? Maybe different from the well known dial factory? I am awaiting this Singer 769 to be able to compare it point by point with my 1943 Chronomat ! Anyway it was not an expensive risk, the final price was very low. |
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| Author: | Roffensian [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A Singer Chronomat? |
saabreit wrote: Roffensian wrote: Agree absolutely, we know that this is a relatively common design of the era and no reason to believe that it is Breitling sourced vs. any of the others (or indeed from parts suppliers). Any suggestion of a Breitling connection is simply an attempt to inflate value. I just come back to the original topic of this post, the Singer 769 looking like a clone of the Breitling Chronomat 769 . The context looks deeply different : according to the general aspect + caseback marking ( 769 + SN 484114 ) , it looks like a very early Chronomat production. Considering that Breitling launched the Chronomat in 1942 - maybe end 1941? - it was early in the product life to re- brand the watch . Movements used by Breitling were not signed , at the contrar of this one which is engraved Singer. Several questions to investigate : - maybe due to WW2 , it was necessary to comply with exportation rules to a specific country - or maybe due to a problem of patent in a specific country ? - Who was this Singer ? Maybe different from the well known dial factory? I am awaiting this Singer 769 to be able to compare it point by point with my 1943 Chronomat ! Anyway it was not an expensive risk, the final price was very low. I see the Singer and the Tourneau separately. I am much more prepared to believe that the Singer is a 'real' Chronomat - especially if it is the dial maker's name rather than a retailer's name. I can't explain how it came about, but it looks much better than the obviously later and suspicious Tourneau. |
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| Author: | Dracha [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A Singer Chronomat? |
here's another kronometer stockholm , i have less probs with these dual branded ones than claiming tourneau is breitling 
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