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What was the relationships btw Breitling and Clebar?
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Author:  saabreit [ Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  What was the relationships btw Breitling and Clebar?
Hi you all :lingsrock: enthusiasts!
Who can explain the realty of relationship btw Breitling and Clebar?
It is the second time at short interval that I see vintage Breitlings with double marking Breitling + Clebar . I was convinced that it was not "natural", but maybe I was wrong ? It is clearly set that some Heuer watches were issued under Clebar brand , but I doubted

1/ I saw that on ebay , the seller is trustable, starting price 1$ :
http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... 23.l2649st

2/ I googled Breitling Clebar and found that :
"HISTORY:

Meyers' Horological Trademark Index (2004) tells us that "Clebar" was first used by Edward Trauner Inc., New York, 21 September 1925 and was registered as a trademark 9 June 1955. He also notes that "Sea Skate" was registered by Trauner in 1960, and that was an alternate name for a Zodiac Sea Wolf.

Separately, he has an entry for Clebar Watch Co., New York, which used the "Clebar" mark since 21 September 1925, but registered it 21 January 1948.

Pritchard lists the Clebar Watch Co., New York as an importer doing business in 1955 - stop watches, chronographs, time study watches, yacht timers, and watches with subsidiary seconds.

In her entry for Zodiac S.A. (reproduced at http://www.vintagezodiacs.com), she has a few notes on Trauner: "A 1955 ad from the ZODIAC WATCH AGENCY, New York (a division of Edward Trauner Inc.) . . ."The lash up is most likely in 1955, when Ariste Calame died and Trauner registered "Clebar."

I'm inclined to think that Trauner/Clebar was an importer of Breitling in the mid-1940s, pre-Breitling of America days, just like Horowitz/Mervos, Sickles/Belmar, and Weissman/Welsbro. Presumably, Trauner/Clebar later had a tie-up with Zodiac like Wakmann did with Breitling."
Author:  WatchFred [ Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What was the relationships btw Breitling and Clebar?
saw this too, and it definitely seems legit. We see quite a lot of co-branding by Breitling in the 40s and 50s, UTI from France, Turler from Switzerland who were just large resellers, so why not co-branded with Clebar, a US reseller.

We had two rather nice co-branded Premiers in the last months that looked totally legit besides the two logos on the dial, but interpreted these as remarked dials of a Clebar that just happened to look very much like the Breitlings, but the 769 is so specific that - to me - there is no doubt that this is an authentic Breitling - though finding that correct 18k bezel will be a b*tch.

The 1945 Clebar Breitling Chronomat 769:

Image
Image
Image
Image
Author:  Dracha [ Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What was the relationships btw Breitling and Clebar?
so that one doesnt stay under the radar either
Author:  WatchFred [ Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What was the relationships btw Breitling and Clebar?
Do you happen to have that 18k bezel lying around, Rene ?
:wink:
Author:  Dracha [ Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What was the relationships btw Breitling and Clebar?
WatchFred wrote:
Do you happen to have that 18k bezel lying around, Rene ?
:wink:


no , I do not have one for sale :lol:
Author:  DHopper71 [ Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What was the relationships btw Breitling and Clebar?
Dracha wrote:
so that one doesnt stay under the radar either


Of course not!! :-|

Although all I wanted was the dial, I was concerned about the double branding. But I wasn't going to ask here until I found out on my own. Oh well.
Author:  saabreit [ Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What was the relationships btw Breitling and Clebar?
WatchFred wrote:
saw this too, and it definitely seems legit. We see quite a lot of co-branding by Breitling in the 40s and 50s, UTI from France, Turler from Switzerland who were just large resellers, so why not co-branded with Clebar, a US reseller.

but the 769 is so specific that - to me - there is no doubt that this is an authentic Breitling - though finding that correct 18k bezel will be a b*tch.

The 1945 Clebar Breitling Chronomat 769:

Image


Fred, don't forget Breitling - Lip from France, as Lip was both the french distributor and also was assembling some 806, 765 and TopTime during 10 years .
Can we understand that Clebar was acting prior to Wakmann in the US?
For sure this Chronomat sounds authentic , as it has not been pimped for more profit . Nice project watch for the happy owner of a gold bezel!
Author:  Roffensian [ Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What was the relationships btw Breitling and Clebar?
saabreit wrote:
Can we understand that Clebar was acting prior to Wakmann in the US?



Well this piece would suggest that's the case. 45 makes sense for a 'pre Wakmann' and no reason to doubt it based on the evidence.

As for the radar - not enough genuine / apparently genuine pieces on eBay for these to slide any more - too many people looking for too few quality pieces.
Author:  saabreit [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What was the relationships btw Breitling and Clebar?
Roffensian wrote:
saabreit wrote:
Can we understand that Clebar was acting prior to Wakmann in the US?



As for the radar - not enough genuine / apparently genuine pieces on eBay for these to slide any more - too many people looking for too few quality pieces.


Really difficult to grab a good piece for nothing on ebay nowadays! Dr :lingsrock: shares datas with mates on BS and Mr Hyde hunts alone on the dark side :wowzers .
Author:  WatchFred [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What was the relationships btw Breitling and Clebar?
saabreit wrote:
WatchFred wrote:
saw this too, and it definitely seems legit. We see quite a lot of co-branding by Breitling in the 40s and 50s, UTI from France, Turler from Switzerland who were just large resellers, so why not co-branded with Clebar, a US reseller.

but the 769 is so specific that - to me - there is no doubt that this is an authentic Breitling - though finding that correct 18k bezel will be a b*tch.


Fred, don't forget Breitling - Lip from France, as Lip was both the french distributor and also was assembling some 806, 765 and TopTime during 10 years .
Can we understand that Clebar was acting prior to Wakmann in the US?
For sure this Chronomat sounds authentic , as it has not been pimped for more profit . Nice project watch for the happy owner of a gold bezel!


Phil, did not forget Lip, but did they not start distribution in the 60s, do not remember seing a 40s/50s Lip co-branded piece ?

Do you know more about UTI, the did co-brand some rather nice watches in the 1950s (I happen to own two :wink: ), but never saw any later pieces or references, google did not really help to find out more ?

saabreit wrote:
Roffensian wrote:
saabreit wrote:
Can we understand that Clebar was acting prior to Wakmann in the US?

As for the radar - not enough genuine / apparently genuine pieces on eBay for these to slide any more - too many people looking for too few quality pieces.


Really difficult to grab a good piece for nothing on ebay nowadays! Dr :lingsrock: shares datas with mates on BS and Mr Hyde hunts alone on the dark side :wowzers .


well, this is why it is called a hunt, it does require a lot of patience, a good eye and - sometimes - a quick finger on the trigger. above all it requires a lot of luck (René ? :wink: ). and thanks god for those listings with abysmally bad pics and wrong or incomplete descriptions.

then this
Image

or this
Image

turn out to be that
Image

or that (still at the Dalles Spa for some TLC, better pics to follow)
Image

:lol:
Author:  Roffensian [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What was the relationships btw Breitling and Clebar?
Still plenty of bargains on eBay (right Fred :lol: ), they just don't have Breitling on the dial :wink:
Author:  Dracha [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What was the relationships btw Breitling and Clebar?
WatchFred wrote:
above all it requires a lot of luck (René ? :wink: ).


:lol:


Yeah right , all those years of 'hard work' (read "sitting behind a screen, drinking coffee & wine while doing investigative work) is reduced to 'luck' :D

But Fred is right , its sometimes does get down to luck , a good eye and a quick finger and we should all have our private supply of 0 FB sellers that have a few 'old watches' for sale and try their luck on Ebay !
Author:  saabreit [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What was the relationships btw Breitling and Clebar?
Hi Fred,
As far as I know, Lip in Besançon was acting as the french distributor for several swiss brands, including Universal Genève, Breitling, Blancpain and others.
For UG, I have some original hands with Lip -UG package , dated btw '52 and '67 .
Concerning Breitling, I shall try to find more informations , as I know several people who were involved in watch manufacturing since the end of WW2 . It is 100% right that Lip-Breitling cobranding was not active at the Chronomat period and started only in the early 60's.

Concerning UTI, I do not have anything, except that I remember a UG Compax with UTI marked dial, but no pic of it .

Last thing , I LOVE the 769 Seiko , the one in a life grab!
I have a story about my first all black AOPA Navitimer : I found it at a "chinese bullshit " shop in Paris , the guy was selling LCD watches with a deal like " I buy your old watch and you get this wonderful LCD watch for only10€". He had a bunch of old watches in a bin... I bought a dozen for 20€ , "to dismantle them and learn" . In the dozen , I grab a more than dirty old watch , yellow broken plexi , disgusting strap, ... it was a 806 AOPA with ricebeads bezel :nana: .
WatchFred wrote:
saabreit wrote:
WatchFred wrote:
saw this too, and it definitely seems legit. We see quite a lot of co-branding by Breitling in the 40s and 50s, UTI from France, Turler from Switzerland who were just large resellers, so why not co-branded with Clebar, a US reseller.

but the 769 is so specific that - to me - there is no doubt that this is an authentic Breitling - though finding that correct 18k bezel will be a b*tch.


Fred, don't forget Breitling - Lip from France, as Lip was both the french distributor and also was assembling some 806, 765 and TopTime during 10 years .
Can we understand that Clebar was acting prior to Wakmann in the US?
For sure this Chronomat sounds authentic , as it has not been pimped for more profit . Nice project watch for the happy owner of a gold bezel!


Phil, did not forget Lip, but did they not start distribution in the 60s, do not remember seing a 40s/50s Lip co-branded piece ?

Do you know more about UTI, the did co-brand some rather nice watches in the 1950s (I happen to own two :wink: ), but never saw any later pieces or references, google did not really help to find out more ?



Really difficult to grab a good piece for nothing on ebay nowadays! Dr :lingsrock: shares datas with mates on BS and Mr Hyde hunts alone on the dark side :wowzers .


well, this is why it is called a hunt, it does require a lot of patience, a good eye and - sometimes - a quick finger on the trigger. above all it requires a lot of luck (René ? :wink: ). and thanks god for those listings with abysmally bad pics and wrong or incomplete descriptions.

then this
Image

quote]
Author:  WatchFred [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What was the relationships btw Breitling and Clebar?
saabreit wrote:
Hi Fred,
As far as I know, Lip in Besançon was acting as the french distributor for several swiss brands, including Universal Genève, Breitling, Blancpain and others.
For UG, I have some original hands with Lip -UG package , dated btw '52 and '67 .
Concerning Breitling, I shall try to find more informations , as I know several people who were involved in watch manufacturing since the end of WW2 . It is 100% right that Lip-Breitling cobranding was not active at the Chronomat period and started only in the early 60's.

Concerning UTI, I do not have anything, except that I remember a UG Compax with UTI marked dial, but no pic of it .

Last thing , I LOVE the 769 Seiko , the one in a life grab!
I have a story about my first all black AOPA Navitimer : I found it at a "chinese bullshit " shop in Paris , the guy was selling LCD watches with a deal like " I buy your old watch and you get this wonderful LCD watch for only10€". He had a bunch of old watches in a bin... I bought a dozen for 20€ , "to dismantle them and learn" . In the dozen , I grab a more than dirty old watch , yellow broken plexi , disgusting strap, ... it was a 806 AOPA with ricebeads bezel :nana: .


Love your 806 "miracle", that is like the proverbial Picasso at the flea market !

That Seiko was funny, it was a 3k+ seller and he posted this ridiculous first pic, called the watch a "18k Breitling Aviator 217012"; to quote Craig when he saw the 769, "watch seems to be little if ever worn", was a nice find, though still quite a bit more than your €20 for that watch lot ....
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