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Interesting post on a Swiss watch forum : O&W, Zurbuchen etc
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Author:  Dracha [ Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Interesting post on a Swiss watch forum : O&W, Zurbuchen etc
http://www.horlogerie-suisse.com/forum/ ... 8&p=161026

loosely translated by Google (made a little more readable by myself)

Ollech & Wajs
by saabreit May 19, 2011, 20:00

I have had the chance to some discussion with Mr. Wajs ... and also studied a little the evolution of the Navitimer.
First it is interesting to return to the production figures of the house of L. Breitling during the '70s , before the descent into hell until 1978 when only a few units were produced.
Imagine the agony of Willy Breitling probably already sick because he had to close 100 year old family business with dignity which was created by his grandfather - and to do so not since it was a failure but a voluntary liquidation. Let us remember that he will only survive three months in his company.
Plans were put in place for Sinn to get a license to manufacture the Navitimer ... but I believe that production have followed the Lemania 1873.
A master watchmaker at Breitling, Jean Zurbuchen, had designed the recently Valjoux 7750 into Navitimer in a housing he made, and sold in more than a few hundreds which is not a fake, but a precursor of future Navitimer of the Schneider era.

Ollech and Wajs young entrepreneurs who have launched a range of sports watches economic and sold in the United States without intermediaries, bought machinery, supplies inventory and WIP - whole or part, I don 't know. Quick sales does not really interest them, and number of models completed, unsold and outdated were transferred to a U.S. wholesaler ... 40 years to sleep in the coffers of a company carrying on business as OldWorld Jewellers. 80% of the Valjoux 7740 caliber dedicated to Breitling and Heuer, produced between 1970 and 1973, were fitted into these models.
A wholesaler Englishman, Lester Harrison, also bought a lot of things that he sells on ebay in batches.
And O & W have assembled Navi clones 806-36 and 809-36 Cosmonaut, changing the background, the crown and dial. The Valjoux 7736 of some models has a bridge engraved Breitling chrono ... not all.

The pieces are exhausted revived the model, with the dispersions related to the production and pre CNC minor modifications. Thus, it is unnecessary a perfect interchangeability between 806 and Navi Series Aviation.
There were also clones Navitimer 7806 and 7806, Navi 806 and 816, and Chrono-Matic. Over time we saw the glass beads reappear of rice, and other variations.

At Breitling, it takes 1985 to see a new Navitimer, the case no longer has anything to do with 806. I am convinced that this case was in the pipeline already in 1979, because it is close to the Sinn or Zurbuchen. The 81,600 nest a Lemania, mounting cradle-motion-box notable change between 1985 and 1986. The latest version will last until 1991 before passing to the bottom screw, which lasts until 2000, withdrawal date of the Lemania Cosmonaut.
In 1987 appears the Old Navitimer with Valjoux 7750 finally.
Author:  vintage [ Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting post on a Swiss watch forum : O&W, Zurbuchen
I find the Zurbuchen part very interesting having passed on a few of those Navitimer clones over the years. Probably should have picked one up.
Author:  Roffensian [ Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting post on a Swiss watch forum : O&W, Zurbuchen
Definitely some expansion of the knowledge base.

Do we know the context of the connection between 'saabreit' and Wajs?
Author:  Dracha [ Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting post on a Swiss watch forum : O&W, Zurbuchen
I have been exchanging some PM's with saabreit and he seems to be a genuinely nice person. I will ask him what else he has picked up from his conversations with Mr Wajs , I may ask him to stop by here as well as his command of the 'Language as spoken by Shakespeare' is flawless and he has a lot of knowledge about Breiting & Navitimers

Some more info I got through PM from saabreit :

"Last point about Aviation watches : Mr Wajs told me that in the beginning they had enough parts to assemble their watches 100% from Breitling stocks. When they went short of some parts, they had new parts machined by copying the original . They were no CNC machines at the period , so the post Breitling parts can have some differences .He told me that, because I intended to use Aviation parts to replace missing parts on a project watch "

vintage wrote:
I find the Zurbuchen part very interesting having passed on a few of those Navitimer clones over the years. Probably should have picked one up.


Agreed , Although I never considered them real Breitling watches they do seem to hold historic value as precursor to the Modern "Old Navitimer" as we know it
Author:  saabreit [ Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting post on a Swiss watch forum : O&W, Zurbuchen
Hi you all Breitling enthusiasts !

As I just met Dracha on the french speaking forum "horlogerie-suisse", he sent me a link to join BreitlingSource .
First of all I have to say that I occasionally came on BreitlingSource and found here highly valuable informations.
I am not a B expert as some of you are, I am just a Navitimer's aficionado ans happy owner of a few ones .
Not many vintage samples, a Chronomat 769, a 1962 allblack AOPA , and a very special 1970 806-E with a allblack dial ( I shall post the story of its rebirth furtherly).

I do not remember exactly the first time I spoke with Mr Wajs . It began when I bought a Aviation 24h in the early ones . I was still aware of the story , an in the box I found an invoice with A. Wajs adress and phone n° in Zurich - Switzerland . I dialed the phone n° and spoke to Mrs Wajs in german - a little because my german is very short . She told me to call back her husband further , and I had the good surprise that Mr Wajs speaks a perfect french . First I bought a replacement strap for my Aviation . In 2009 I had the idea to send him an email for some parts I was seeking after for my Chronomat and 806-E . We had several phone calls and he told me the details in the post as translated by Dracha .

I mentionned my 806-E : I got it in Switzerland as a wreck , it had been sunk and the original 7736 was so rusty that I was just good for bin .My watch dial had a big dent in the middle , but it was "special" as it was allblack with the double plane logo. I had never seen a similar design before, and I was sure it was 100% genuine . At this moment of the story, happened a miracle when I had the idea to ask Mr Wajs if he had a Navi dial for 7736. He told me that basically all original 7736 dials had been "recycled" to print Aviation dials ... he had only 2 remaining : a used panda in average condition and a NOS allblack , which escaped to recycling . It is the way I found what might be a rare survivor of allblack limited or prototype dials for 7736 .

I have not called Mr Wajs since last year and intend to do so until end of Janauary .
Author:  Roffensian [ Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting post on a Swiss watch forum : O&W, Zurbuchen
Welcome to BreitlingSource - its great to add to our knowledge, thanks for joining.
Author:  Dracha [ Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting post on a Swiss watch forum : O&W, Zurbuchen
Hi Phil,

welcome to the forum ! glad you could make it and you are truly a great source of info

saabreit wrote:
I mentionned my 806-E : I got it in Switzerland as a wreck , it had been sunk and the original 7736 was so rusty that I was just good for bin .My watch dial had a big dent in the middle , but it was "special" as it was allblack with the double plane logo. I had never seen a similar design before, and I was sure it was 100% genuine . At this moment of the story, happened a miracle when I had the idea to ask Mr Wajs if he had a Navi dial for 7736. He told me that basically all original 7736 dials had been "recycled" to print Aviation dials ... he had only 2 remaining : a used panda in average condition and a NOS allblack , which escaped to recycling . It is the way I found what might be a rare survivor of allblack limited or prototype dials for 7736 .

I have not called Mr Wajs since last year and intend to do so until end of Janauary .


This is a great story

You know,
you should get Mr Wajs to document and confirm this on paper !
I believe this is a truly unique piece and with proper documentation I think you have a very valuable watch and it add's a lot to our own understanding of what was in the pipeline and it certainly helps the overall knowledge

If someone else had claimed this was an original dial I would have a hard time believing it but I have no reason to doubt your word

I wonder how much more knowledge is out there 'hidden' in people's minds that we would really like to know

Rgds
-Rene
Author:  WatchFred [ Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting post on a Swiss watch forum : O&W, Zurbuchen
welcome to the forum, good to have you here !
Author:  saabreit [ Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting post on a Swiss watch forum : O&W, Zurbuchen
Dracha wrote:
Hi Phil,

welcome to the forum ! glad you could make it and you are truly a great source of info

saabreit wrote:
I mentionned my 806-E : I got it in Switzerland as a wreck , it had been sunk and the original 7736 was so rusty that I was just good for bin .My watch dial had a big dent in the middle , but it was "special" as it was allblack with the double plane logo. I had never seen a similar design before, and I was sure it was 100% genuine . At this moment of the story, happened a miracle when I had the idea to ask Mr Wajs if he had a Navi dial for 7736. He told me that basically all original 7736 dials had been "recycled" to print Aviation dials ... he had only 2 remaining : a used panda in average condition and a NOS allblack , which escaped to recycling . It is the way I found what might be a rare survivor of allblack limited or prototype dials for 7736 .

I have not called Mr Wajs since last year and intend to do so until end of Janauary .


This is a great story

You know,
you should get Mr Wajs to document and confirm this on paper !
I believe this is a truly unique piece and with proper documentation I think you have a very valuable watch and it add's a lot to our own understanding of what was in the pipeline and it certainly helps the overall knowledge

If someone else had claimed this was an original dial I would have a hard time believing it but I have no reason to doubt your word

I wonder how much more knowledge is out there 'hidden' in people's minds that we would really like to know

Rgds
-Rene

Hi René,
By chance I have kept all emails exchanged with Mr Wajs in Oct 2010 , I have just forwarded you the email with his offre for 2 dials including the allblack with pic attached - see your private mailbox - I also have his original invoice.
Best regards, Phil
Author:  Dracha [ Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting post on a Swiss watch forum : O&W, Zurbuchen
Thanks Phil
truly an original and unique Breitling dial and a very interesting piece of history !
Author:  WatchFred [ Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting post on a Swiss watch forum : O&W, Zurbuchen
Phil, it would be great to publish this on the Forum ?
love the 769, seems quite early, 45-46 ?

best, Fred
Author:  saabreit [ Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting post on a Swiss watch forum : O&W, Zurbuchen
WatchFred wrote:
Phil, it would be great to publish this on the Forum ?
love the 769, seems quite early, 45-46 ?

best, Fred

Hi Fred,
I have forwarded the email to René to assess that the dial is 100% original Breitling but I is not my aim to publish all papers on the forum .
The 769 is early, SN 508437 corresponding to year 1943 I guess . Cal Venus 175 has a non marked bridge but it is not "neutral" as the whole caliber shows a Côtes de Genève finish. Is it original or further individual work, I don't know .
The bezel is fixed with 3 small metallic pins . The original black dial showed very poor condition . I have carefully kept it apart and replaced by this silver dial with assorted hands, untouched condition but effectively 45-46. If by luck I find a matching black dial in the future I should be happy to go back to origin. From my opinion better option than reprinting the original dial :lingsrock: .
Author:  Dracha [ Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting post on a Swiss watch forum : O&W, Zurbuchen
saabreit wrote:
I have forwarded the email to René to assess that the dial is 100% original Breitling but I is not my aim to publish all papers on the forum .


I confirm that I have received the documentation from Phil and this all seems very genuine , I have no reason to doubt the authenticity of the dial , and usually I am the first to doubt everything !! :oops:
Author:  saabreit [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting post on a Swiss watch forum : O&W, Zurbuchen
Dracha wrote:
saabreit wrote:
I have forwarded the email to René to assess that the dial is 100% original Breitling but I is not my aim to publish all papers on the forum .


I confirm that I have received the documentation from Phil and this all seems very genuine , I have no reason to doubt the authenticity of the dial , and usually I am the first to doubt everything !! :oops:


Thanks for your confirmation, René!
Author:  saabreit [ Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting post on a Swiss watch forum : O&W, Zurbuchen
saabreit wrote:
WatchFred wrote:
Phil, it would be great to publish this on the Forum ?
love the 769, seems quite early, 45-46 ?

best, Fred

Hi Fred,
I have forwarded the email to René to assess that the dial is 100% original Breitling but I is not my aim to publish all papers on the forum .
The 769 is early, SN 508437 corresponding to year 1943 I guess . Cal Venus 175 has a non marked bridge but it is not "neutral" as the whole caliber shows a Côtes de Genève finish. Is it original or further individual work, I don't know .
The bezel is fixed with 3 small metallic pins . The original black dial showed very poor condition . I have carefully kept it apart and replaced by this silver dial with assorted hands, untouched condition but effectively 45-46. If by luck I find a matching black dial in the future I should be happy to go back to origin. From my opinion better option than reprinting the original dial :lingsrock: .


Hi you all the vintage :lingsrock:enthusiasts ... here attached are some more pics of my Chronomat as I originally found it . Just have a look to the cotes de Genève on the Venus 175! My real concern is that the black dial inscriptions have been erased all around , probably due to the wrong sliderule ring . It is the reason why I have replaced it by a nice silver one ... but if I am so lucky that I can find a good black dial I should be happy to go back to original color!
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