The Breitling Watch Source Forums

Just dipping my toes into the vintage market and came across this lovely (not a ling, sorry) - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 500wt_1156

Seems like some very reputable dealers on eBay who are upfront about "refinished" or "reconditioned" dials, hands, etc. have a very good following. I know that nothing beats 100% original and "authentic", but do you discount a watch if the dial has been reconditioned? A local watch repairer said he "acid washes" the dials and insists that it does nothing to diminish the value of the piece. He said I need to be careful of people who actually touch up the dial (i.e. repaint numerals).

So my question is...does polishing/cleaning up old dials or hands or cases affect the value of a vintage piece? Are there any "rules" as to what is and is not acceptable and how does it diminish the value of a piece - and let's assume the watch is complete - it's not a Frankenwatch with pieces from several watches - let's just assume all parts are original - just some of the parts have been "reconditioned."

Thank you

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PAM359, Omega PO Big Size, 1951 Omega Seamaster, Rolex Sea Dweller

It comes down to personal taste.

I don't mind if the dial has been cleaned, although I prefer less invasive processes than acid washing, but I personally won't (knowingly) buy a dial that's been restamped, I just don't see the need - there are plenty of original pieces out there that you can find with patience, so why 'settle'. If I came across an absolute grail watch that I knew wouldn't be found for sale again for years to come then maybe I would accept a redial, but I doubt it.

I won't touch frankenwatches.

I think a big difference between Breitling and a lot of other brands is that the other brands seem to have NOS parts still available . So if you send your pre-moon omega for refurb to Omega it comes back pristine and new. Breitling has, as far as I know , no (or very few) vintage cosmetic parts available

I would love to send one of my All Black 806's and a AVI to Breitling for a redial , new hands and a service but I am afraid thats not going to happen as (as I am told) new dials are simply not available

So would I mind a refinishing on a vintage piece ? .. not if its done by the Manufacturer and I can choose which (for example) parts I can have changed

Imagine we can have dials, cases, hands etc replaced with new by Breitling , personally I'd like to have that option

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"I spent most of my money on Booze, Breitling and Boats. The rest I wasted" - mostly Elmore Leonard

There's a simple answer to your question, and that is - "yes" . . . ! ! !

/ Kurt B

my personal taste only: I would not even want an original replacement dial on my 806.
age, lume loss (elegant, ideally) and patina make a watch really beautiful.
all the rest is imho like botox smiles or breast implants

Unfortunately some dials are in such poor condition after 60 or 70 years that they need to be reaccomplished to retain the esthetics of the piece. I see no point in having an otherwise excellent watch with a dial in poor condition. If a better replacement (new or used) can't be found then restoring the dial is the only recourse to saving the watch. Fundamentally it all comes down to what you're comfortable with and not what someone else tells you they're comfortable with.

As everyone has said, quite a lot of this is down to personal preference. Like you when I started collecting I found this all a bit of a minefield and very confusing. I think there are several answers to this question for me and it depends why you are collecting and what's important to you. If for example you have your father's watch and it has a sentimental value and the dial is a basket case, then restoring the dial so you can wear it is the right thing to do.

Having said that the market is relatively clear about value and originality and that is the question you have raised here. So as Kurt said the short answer is, yes, the same watch with an original dial in good condition is going to be more expensive than that watch with a restored dial. That is not to say that a restored dial on a watch makes the watch valueless, only that a collector will pay less for it than with an original dial. This is true in many different areas of collecting. As a comparison, a damaged photograph by Ansel Adams that was printed by him at the time, is more valuable than a prisitine version of the photograph printed from the same negative forty years later.

If we then take two watches with original dials, then there will be a premium for the condition of each. So a New Old Stock watch, commands a premium over the same watch in a more worn condition (there are complications on this, but in general I think this is true).



For myself having an original dial is my line in the sand for collecting even for extremely rare watches and my personal advice if you are thinking of collecting and for long term value is to buy watches with original dials. The one exception to this is military watches where the dial was redone as part of it's military life (like the Lemania's).

Generally the more original the higher the value of the watch, but there are certain things that don't bother me, if the hands have been relumed or repainted for example, if the case has been well restored (although not over polished), it doesn't worry me, it will affect value but not necessarily that much depending on the watch. It then depends on the general condition that you find an example of that watch in, generally collectors don't expect to find a pristine dial on a 1930's watch and some even value patina and age. In military collecting for example a watch which looks like it has lived a life will often sell more quickly than a pristine version of that watch. Beauty is very much in the eye of the beholder. I have often heard collectors say "it looks too new". My experience is that collectors of certain kinds of vintage watches want the watch to reflect it's age and value the Wabi.

Whereas, as Dracha has said, some collectors want an immaculate version of a watch, but still with original parts. I have a few NOS watches and I have to say I don't enjoy them as much as other watches I have because I am too scared to wear them, which seems to me not to be in the spirit of why I collect watches in the first place.

For me I am looking for a watch to have an overall harmony with itself, that it's aesthetic is balanced across all its elements. For example a beautiful patinated dial which has naturally aged should have hands that don't "pop" out because they have been painted too white.

What I would suggest is take some time and research the type of watch you would like to buy and get a feel for what collectors of that watch look for and desire. Each vintage brand has it's own little nuances and it's not necessarily the same for each type of watch.

Not quite on topic, but I thought this article raised many interesting thoughts on this subject.

http://omega-constellation-collectors.b ... shing.html

It all depends for me too... but I would have to agree that most of the time in my opinion refinishing usually does take away a bit of the value of a piece.

I stay away from redials... I'm a purist...

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"I don't got the bright watch I got the right watch" -Jay Z

I think Yaffle comprehensively covered the topic, but something to consider is the watch itself. Some watches look good with wear, others not. For example, I should be getting my Omega Seamaster 176.007 back next week from a full service and restoration. I bought new hands and might have gotten a new dial if it were available. For this particular watch, I want it to look new. It is not the most unique piece I own, it has no sentimental value, I have little invested in it, and my main objective is to make it last as long as possible. It should look great with everything put back to original shape and I will be happy with it as is.

On my vintage Heuer Carrera 1553, on the other hand, I'd never have the dial or hands touched. I don't care much for lume patina, but it is correct for the watch. It needs to stay just the way it is.

In general, dials probably should never be refinished. Cleaned? Maybe. Replaced? Sure, if that is what you want, but a refinished dial is worth almost nothing to a serious collector. Unfortunately, Omegas seem to be an open market for redials. Be wary of them. If you like the watch and it is inexpensive, buy it, but do not expect a re-dialed watch to have any significant resale value.

Cases are different. A good case refinish can make a nice watch become an exceptional watch. The unfortunate thing is that there are not too many people who can do a truly good job refinishing cases. Nearly anyone can polish metal, some can add a satin finish, but few can do both well and accurately restore original pattern(s). And then there is the nearly impossible-to-reproduce radial satin finish that was popular on the top of steel cases in the 1970's. I know of only two people who can correctly reproduce that type of finish.

A watch repairer once gave me some great advice: Wear a watch for a few months before doing anything to it. If after that time you know you want it serviced or refinished, then do it. Otherwise, just enjoy it.

Well said... I had Craig polish my Speedie Mark 2 because I wanted to make it a bit newer looking... hands were okay, glass replaced... and a movement service was all that it needed. The one thing I kinda like Omega is that their vintage parts inventory is pretty prevalent. And all original to boot which is always nice.

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"I don't got the bright watch I got the right watch" -Jay Z

Thanks so much for the insight and thoughtful replies everyone.

The watches I currently own are fantastic (in my signature), but typically very difficult to wear with cufflinks and certain shirts. I thought a vintage piece - a "classic" look from the 50s or 60s would be fun - an Omega or Rolex - and it would be easily accessible under a cufflinked sleeve. My preference was to spend less than $2,000 USD. I thought that particular Omega had a very classic look and my preference is steel or white gold vs. yellow gold. I agree that a "cleaned" dial is probably better than "refinished," but I feel like there isn't a hard definition for what "refinished" means. It's hard for me personally to figure out what specific models "should" look like and this is actually the most useful forum that I have found on the web for help with these matters.

The new Breitling Transocean has me tapping my toes though

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PAM359, Omega PO Big Size, 1951 Omega Seamaster, Rolex Sea Dweller

Looking at the watches you currently have, it may be that many vintage dress watches may feel too small. I would suggest you try a few on and get a sense of what wears well. If you want good bang for your buck in vintage dress watches then have a look at Longines as well, especially the Conquest line.



Well I would take it to mean if anything has been added to the dial. I don't know what an "acid wash" does, but if all it does is remove dirt from the dial surface I wouldn't define that as a refinished dial. If however new lume is added or the numerals are touched up, that would start to cross the line for me for descriptive purposes. Although there are exceptions, for instance enamel dials can quite happily have new lume added to them and many collectors wouldn't consider that to diminish the value of the dial, anymore than they would expect the same lubricants to be used in the movement as when it left the factory.

Once again I would add that this is all about value to the collector, a watch that is in a wearable attractive condition and you have payed the going rate for it with whatever restoration has been done to it, will still command an equal price down the line. Like for like and it's cheaper and you can wear it and enjoy it. It's where you pay for a refinished watch the price of an original that the problem occurs.

As an example many gilt dials in Rolex watches from the Sixties were routinely swapped during a Rolex service for new dials made by Rolex. It's still a Rolex dial, but it is not the dial the watch should have. Both versions of the watch have a value and are wearable and collectible, but you pay a serious premium for the original gilt dial over the service dial.