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Topic: Cadette Chronographs
https://www.breitlingsource.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=27944		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Bill in Sacramento [ Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:31 am ]
Post subject:  Topic: Cadette Chronographs
It is my belief that most every "Cadette" we see for sale is a "creation." They just aren't marked right. I could be wrong, but the absence of documentation in catalogs and advertising is consistent with my findings on the irregular markings, etc. Richter lists 1197 as a reference number for "Cadette," but I don't think he shows one (but my eyes may be missing it). I don't see one in The Book either. In other words, I don't know of a documented real one to compare.

I think someone must have a cottage industry making "Cadettes" from "Chronographe Suisse" models. I didn't look at all of them, but I think there are at least four posted at eBay right now. The dials look real vintage and aged. Since the scripts are angled, it's difficult to compare with real signatures. And, the rest of the markings are real close to believable, too. It would fool most everyone. [Am I too cynical?]

Otherwise, I believe that all of the watches in the 1190 range were made to be the, how shall I put it, entry-level watches. They all have either chrome or gold-plated cases, even the snazzy round pusher 1191. I don't think any of these models were made in solid stainless steel, let alone solid gold.

As I think about it some more, that maybe what's going on. The 1190 cases were so much less durable that we're seeing recycled dials in new cases (hands, maybe movements). I just don't know. 1190s typically have unsigned bridges, so maybe there is added temptation to dummy up the movement with additional markings.

Here's the fun bit. I ran across this auction this morning and thought for sure that I had seen the watch go by before. An English-speaking forger had passed his instructions to a likely non-English speaking engraver. His instructions included a drawing for the fake signature on the bridge, which apparently positioned the instruction on the bridge drawing itself. Voila! "ON BRIDGE" got engraved as well as the fake signature.

http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-SWISS-BREIT ... 45f87348b5

I thought it was the same watch, but my hunch about a cottage "Cadette" industry is verified. I had saved the image from the auction in September 2006. That watch had round pushers, so it is indeed a different watch. This workshop is good, but not perfect.

That's my "Cadette" position. I'll be interested in learning other views.

[Likewise, has anyone figured out a good way to save images from the new eBay auction posting system? Saved images of real and fake are good reference materials.]
Author:  Dracha [ Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Topic: Cadette Chronographs
Bill in Sacramento wrote:

[Likewise, has anyone figured out a good way to save images from the new eBay auction posting system? Saved images of real and fake are good reference materials.]


in Firefox :

first click on teh pic the enlarge it
right click in the screen with the big pic (not on the pic but on the side but still in the screen)
click "page info"
new firefox screen will open
click "media"
and you will see the large pic
just click 'save' and it will


On the cadette

I seem to remember some movements that were marked "Cadette" much like the "Premier" ? but honestly I never paid much attention to the cadette models :oops:
Author:  Bill in Sacramento [ Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Thanks, Rene!
That's pretty easy, but you have to click around looking for that sweet spot for "View Info."

Here's the other example.
Author:  vintage [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Topic: Cadette Chronographs
Now Bill you know we should be prefacing these kind of observations with IMO so nobody gets the wrong impression and takes everything as gospel. :wink: Actually I'm good with the Cadette's. I've had two within the 1190 series of watches and have been seeing them pop up since I've been doing Breitling's for about 17 years. I do agree that the 1190 series of watches appear to have been a little more generic in looks and I haven't seen a steel one either. There is a Breitling non-chrono on page 75 of Richter's book that uses the Cadette name on the dial and I know I've got some pics in other books of the Cadette chrono's but will have to try and find them. The ones I've had have been perfectly marked on the bridge, back, dial, and crown. They were also worn a little more than others for some reason.
Author:  Roffensian [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Topic: Cadette Chronographs
Don't have any personal experience with cadettes, but there have been a fair few through here in the last few years that appear to be correct*

I can buy the argument that as 'value' pieces they are more likely to have been damaged and therefore become donors to the assemblers, but I think that at least some are real.


* Disclaimer, this is the author's personal opinion and should not be deemed as an endorsement of cadette chronos by BreitlingSource :roll:
Author:  WatchFred [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Topic: Cadette Chronographs
Am by no way an expert, but have not seen a "Cadette" that did not look like a rebranded Chronographe Suisse either, apparently our friends in Turkey love those.

Bill: regarding your question for a solution to save pictures in Firefox, I can suggest an alternative that really works nicely.
The solution Dracha suggested works fine, but is not very user friendly.

Screengrab is a Firefox addon, that solves this issue perfectly; have a look, it is very easy to use. You download and install it, then rightclick, choose Screengrab an more or less do anything to a firefox page you want, options should be self explanatory, but I would be happy to help if needed. enjoy, WatchFred

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefo ... creengrab/
or
http://www.screengrab.org/
Author:  Bill in Sacramento [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Topic: Cadette Chronographs
Roffensian wrote:

I think that at least some are real.



I think that has to be true, too. Richter's reference table entries are derived from catalogs and ads. It appears to be documentary, which is why there are some inconsistencies when model specifications change from over time and catalog to catalog. I just wish we had a documentary example of an 1197 Cadette to compare.

And, as I think about it some more, I wonder if the original reference and serial numbers may sometimes be copied onto the new caseback. If you look at the condition of many of the dials, they look original, but beat. I bet the cases are even more beat, but those numbers could be transferred to a new case.

Of the four "Cadettes" posted at eBay right now, the three not marked "ON BRIDGE" are unambiguous "Chronographe Suisse" cases and incorrect. But one has "1197" and an appropriate serial number added. Those numbers are possibly transferred from the original case.

And thanks, Fred. I'll try the "screengrab" technique. It sounds quick and easy.
Author:  WatchFred [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Topic: Cadette Chronographs
not really a surprise: The MuseumLoungeLurker has several Cadette Chronos on offer, all absolute bargains

230408937599: double caseback 18k "Breitling", ref. 252 (which I do not find in Richter)

250472892840: double caseback 18k "Breitling", ref. 1757 (also a no show in Richter, as far as I see)

140485196460: 18k, "right" ref. 1197, 1955, could this be real ???



Another seller in Germany has a non-chrono Cadette on offer for "only" US$ 3.300 and some change, again with a ref. that I do not find, 1-93
http://cgi.ebay.de/BREITLING-CADETTE-HE ... 3f01ddbfd9

One example out of France that might be real ? ref. 1188, steel ? Actually looks authentic, I think ?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... &viewitem=
Author:  Bill in Sacramento [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Topic: Cadette Chronographs
140485196460: 18k, "right" ref. 1197, 1955, could this be real ???

The case is still a "Chronographe Suisse," but I'm guessing the original model and serial numbers might have been copied over to the replacement case.

Another seller in Germany has a non-chrono Cadette on offer for "only" US$ 3.300 and some change, again with a ref. that I do not find, 1-93

Time-only "Cadettes" in this format are numbered 1350-1354 or so (if I'm remembering correctly). I think Watchbroker24 is the follow-on to Webauktion24, who must have recently been paroled. They are notorious fakers and abusers.

One example out of France that might be real ? ref. 1188, steel ? Actually looks authentic, I think ?

I think this one must be a correct one. See what I mean about wear to the case? However, it is marked "1188," and we are left wondering just to which models "Cadette" or other marks were applied and where on the dial.
Author:  Roffensian [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Topic: Cadette Chronographs
Am I the only one tempted to report the double caseback ones after eBay actually pulled one of those last week?
Author:  WatchFred [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Topic: Cadette Chronographs
No Roff, definitely not alone here. But does it make sense ? Only these one or make a project out of it ? Reporting all fakes that he has will take some time and effort, could make that one LurkerFake a week for quite some time.
Might actually be fun

Although, looking selection watch-broker-24 has on offer, the MuseumLounge looks like a honest seller at reasonable prices, just have a look:

average 806, BIN "only" US$ 8,250

"Breitling" Chrono, "original" dial, "1950", ref "84" ???, no serial no. http://cgi.ebay.de/BREITLING-18kt-ROTGO ... 3efe70e85b

"Breitling" Chrono, "like NOS", ref 1184 ???, at the bargain basement BIN of only approx US$ 6,600.
http://cgi.ebay.de/BREITLING-HERRENUHR- ... 3f03f13864

1750 feedback, 100%.

Actually I start to like the guys from Buenos Aires
Author:  Roffensian [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Topic: Cadette Chronographs
WatchFred wrote:
No Roff, definitely not alone here. But does it make sense ? Only these one or make a project out of it ? Reporting all fakes that he has will take some time and effort, could make that one LurkerFake a week for quite some time.
Might actually be fun



The problems that I have with this situation are the multiple eBay usernames that are effectively a front for the same seller and the fact that to the uninitiated the watches look 'good' - professional sales layout, high quality photos, etc. In the past you would need to have a decent level of knowledge to call these fake, and there was little chance of eBay doing anything, but the double casebacks are blatant.
Author:  WatchFred [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Topic: Cadette Chronographs
Just edited previous post after looking at what Bill describes as "I think Watchbroker24 is the follow-on to Webauktion24, who must have recently been paroled. They are notorious fakers and abusers." This is really among the worst ripoffs I´ve seen.

Litigation frenzy (from the US, Roff, not Canada) might have swept over to Germany. Watchbroker24 prohibits the copying of his images and threatens immediate litigation action.
Author:  WatchFred [ Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Topic: Cadette Chronographs
looks like a real gold cadette ?
redial, wrong bretling logo added, but the rest ?
http://cgi.ebay.it/breitling-cadette-cr ... 41579d1f24
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