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One of the nicer fakes I've seen
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Author:  vintage [ Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:  One of the nicer fakes I've seen
Creative for sure. This one had a little thought behind it but the end result is still the same.

http://cgi.ebay.com/BREITLING-18K-GOLD-CHRONOGRAPH-LIMITED-ED-NO-RESERVE-/390249707835?pt=Wristwatches&hash=item5adcb1f93b
Author:  jlee5050 [ Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: One of the nicer fakes I've seen
I like the "limited series" touch... :D

Indeed nice... close but no cigar...
Author:  Roffensian [ Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: One of the nicer fakes I've seen
Better than most for sure - but buyers seem to be seeing through it so far.
Author:  vintage [ Sat Oct 09, 2010 4:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: One of the nicer fakes I've seen
Whoops! I should read the description better. This is a "reissue" piece according to the description. I'm told that these were assembled in the early 1980's from spare parts but not sure how accurate that is. That would probably explain the apparent quality of the finish in this piece.
Author:  Roffensian [ Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: One of the nicer fakes I've seen
vintage wrote:
Whoops! I should read the description better. This is a "reissue" piece according to the description. I'm told that these were assembled in the early 1980's from spare parts but not sure how accurate that is. That would probably explain the apparent quality of the finish in this piece.


Yeah, but I still am not convinced that it's right. These aren't my strong point, and the dial is consistent with the 1980 / 81 reissues, but I've never seen that caseback before.
Author:  Bill in Sacramento [ Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  I've puzzled over these for some time.
There is a family of these watches, each seems a little different, that makes me wonder who made them. The font on the one 1Tuna has matches the two at the bottom of page 129 of Richter's book ("watches of the 1940s," which they ain't).

I think this one is a member of that family. So, given the publication date of Richter's book (1995), I think they must be made between 1981 and 1993 or so.

I see absolutely no evidence that the original company had anything to do with these.

Also, there is no evidence on the watch that the current company made them, in whatever mood they were in. There is no logo, mark, trace, puff, scratch, whiz or bang that matches anything we've seen on a Sicura or Breitling of any era. [I don't recall ever seeing an image of the inside caseback.]

I have never seen catalog or advertising copy including reference to these. I note "The Book" omits any reference, too. I recall seeing an example of these on eBay a few years ago, which came with a fancy box and some paperwork. That had me thinking it was really a Breitling production. That's the only time I've seen paperwork with one of these. Isn't that something a buyer/collector would be sure to save?

Where are the accent marks on "Serie Limitee"? Why does this example have a Lemania movement with a maker removed from the bridge and replaced with an upside down, non-period matching mark?

Here are some images from another family member that Kingschild sold in October 2009. [Sorry. I'm showing images in reverse order.] They posted it as made around 1995. It appears to have a Landeron movement with a rather crude, to my eye, engraving on the bridge. I have a couple of images in my "oddities" folder of another member of this family that matches a moonphase watch on page 129 of Richter. I think the image must have come from an eBay auction.

In the end, I don't rule out that Sicura AG made these watches (mindful that the name changed only in 1993). If they did, I think they were having a bad day, since these examples are only superficially "pretty." Could the current company have made a "Limited Series" and then someone else decided to make some more? Can't rule that out. Are all of these bogus? Can't rule that out, ether.

It would be really good to have some catalog, magazine, or advertising copy. What do you think?
Author:  vintage [ Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I've puzzled over these for some time.
Bill in Sacramento wrote:
Where are the accent marks on "Serie Limitee"? Why does this example have a Lemania movement with a maker removed from the bridge and replaced with an upside down, non-period matching mark?


Looks like a Venus 175 according to my book. I tend to believe this was built as a premium series because it was made in 18k. That does show some effort it making the watch something special like a limited edition.
Author:  Bill in Sacramento [ Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I've puzzled over these for some time.
vintage wrote:
Looks like a Venus 175 according to my book.



Yep. Venus 150 or 175. Sorry.
Author:  vintage [ Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: One of the nicer fakes I've seen
Seller must have got an offer he liked. It's gone.
Author:  Bill in Sacramento [ Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:42 am ]
Post subject:  Here's something I didn't check . . .
. . . and it seems an obvious thing to do.

Richter does have photo credits in the back, which shows a photo credit to Breitling, Grenchen. That strongly suggests the watches came from there. It's interesting to note, then, that the one I showed that appears identical to the one on page 129 does not have anything on the caseback (at least, that I can see in that image). Why does he say they come from the 1940s?

I wonder why all of these seem a bit different from each other.
Author:  vintage [ Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: One of the nicer fakes I've seen
He started the auction again this time with all the paperwork and boxes. The numbers make sense on the back now. Sequence number is 45 and I'm assuming the 175 denotes the series of the Venus movement inside. Cool.

http://cgi.ebay.com/BREITLING-18K-GOLD-CHRONOGRAPH-LIMITED-ED-NO-RESERVE-/390250784726?pt=Wristwatches&hash=item5adcc267d6
Author:  Bill in Sacramento [ Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:  I wonder what he was waiting for.
That box and papers matches my recollection of what I saw before, not that I have perfect recall. It's interesting that the paperwork says "Breitling Montbrillant" and that was on the dial of the example that Kingschild had last year but not this one. What caliber would "C11" denote in that case? I wonder if the 279 included a big variety of designs, as illustrated on Richter page 129, etc.
Author:  vintage [ Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I wonder what he was waiting for.
Bill in Sacramento wrote:
What caliber would "C11" denote in that case?


My first thought would be the automatic cal 11 chrono movement but not having see it it's just a guess. They did also use the Venus 178 in the moonphase version so who knows what they were trying to accomplish.
Author:  Bill in Sacramento [ Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I wonder what he was waiting for.
vintage wrote:
Bill in Sacramento wrote:
What caliber would "C11" denote in that case?


My first thought would be the automatic cal 11 chrono movement but not having see it it's just a guess. They did also use the Venus 178 in the moonphase version so who knows what they were trying to accomplish.


The movement image is attached to my post above, and it looks like a Landeron movement to me. What do you think?
Author:  Roffensian [ Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I wonder what he was waiting for.
Bill in Sacramento wrote:
vintage wrote:
Bill in Sacramento wrote:
What caliber would "C11" denote in that case?


My first thought would be the automatic cal 11 chrono movement but not having see it it's just a guess. They did also use the Venus 178 in the moonphase version so who knows what they were trying to accomplish.


The movement image is attached to my post above, and it looks like a Landeron movement to me. What do you think?


Remember that this is post bankruptcy, so likely not the same as the pre-bankruptcy cal. 11. The Breitling 11 of the modern Breitling has a Lemania 1873 base (which this clearly isn't), so may be something else entirely - though who knows what!
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