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Help with 60s Breitlings (incl Top Time)!
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Author:  MasterMark [ Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Help with 60s Breitlings (incl Top Time)!
Hello all! New to the forum, although have been a lurker for some time. Hope I've put this in the right section.....

Been looking for a vintage watch for some months to replace one that was stolen some time ago. Never looked at Breitlings because, to be perfectly honest, I don't much like them (not making myself popular am I?), but I came across a couple of Top Time models in a shop one day and think they are absolutely stunning. Been doing some research, and I'm probably limited to the cheaper models. I've found a few possibles on the bay and was hoping for some assistance! Links below. The 2 Top Time's in particular seem to be a little too "new" - the dials have almost no ageing marks on them which suggests that they've been refurbished (as opposed to just cleaned). Does anyone have any thoughts? The two TTs are both stated to have been fully serviced.

The values of the TTs seem to have gone up substantially in the past few years (looking on this and other forums looks like they used to go for £400-£600 in 2006, but struggling to find anything less than £1k at the mo. If anyone has any suggestions/recommendations, they'd be very much appreciated!

Regards to all,

Marc

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... K:MEWAX:IT

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... K:MEWAX:IT

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... K:MEWAX:IT
Author:  Roffensian [ Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with 60s Breitlings (incl Top Time)!
Welcome to BreitlingSource.

One of the golden rules of vintage Breitlings, the logos are laways consistent. That rules out number one as having any chance of being real - script dial and printed bridge. Personally I don't like either of them, it looks to be a no name that has been branded Breitling - there's nothing right about any of it.

The second one looks much better, but an over restoration and sharp photos don't make it right. I'm concerned about the serial number, the engraving looks odd, but can't really call it wrong, just something about it I don't like. Unusual movement for a 2003, but not unheard of.

The third one could be OK, I've seen 2002s that look like that (even though the crown looks off, it isn't), but without movement shots I wouldn't risk it.
Author:  MasterMark [ Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with 60s Breitlings (incl Top Time)!
Thank you Roffensian, extremely helpful. Yes, the logo on the 1st was one I'd never seen before, but I assumed (wrongly) that if you branded a fake watch you'd use an accurate script!

I asked the seller (apparently a "trusted seller" on the chrono24 website) of the 3rd watch re a movement photo. He responded that the movement is removed from the top, bezel side rather than the case back, and so it would require dismantling of the pushbuttons and crowns. I thought all the TT movements were accessed from the case back?

Separately (and if it's not against forum rules), are you able to provide some kind of idea on value? Does the asking price seem reasonable (taking the comments that the watches have been fully serviced as gospel). I'll obviously keep shopping around (not in any great rush) but would like to have some idea of what I should be looking for!
Author:  Roffensian [ Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with 60s Breitlings (incl Top Time)!
MasterMark wrote:
Thank you Roffensian, extremely helpful. Yes, the logo on the 1st was one I'd never seen before, but I assumed (wrongly) that if you branded a fake watch you'd use an accurate script!

I asked the seller (apparently a "trusted seller" on the chrono24 website) of the 3rd watch re a movement photo. He responded that the movement is removed from the top, bezel side rather than the case back, and so it would require dismantling of the pushbuttons and crowns. I thought all the TT movements were accessed from the case back?

Separately (and if it's not against forum rules), are you able to provide some kind of idea on value? Does the asking price seem reasonable (taking the comments that the watches have been fully serviced as gospel). I'll obviously keep shopping around (not in any great rush) but would like to have some idea of what I should be looking for!


The only front loaded movements that I recall were the vintage superoceans / transoceans, pretty sure that these aren't.

Value is tough because condition drives everything - a recently serviced original example with provenance can easily be 2 - 3 times a rough piece with no history.

The GBP1,000 that you mentioned should still get you a very good piece. I wouldn't consider any of these to be good buys because I'm not happy with them. Even assuming that the second one is OK the price is being driven by pretty pictures.
Author:  MasterMark [ Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with 60s Breitlings (incl Top Time)!
Ok thanks, Roffensian. That's really helpful info. Back to the search for me, at least I'm armed with more knowledge than I had a couple of hours ago!
Author:  jlee5050 [ Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with 60s Breitlings (incl Top Time)!
Well... after checking out all three of them...

I would have to probably go with the second one too...

I have a square case 2007 that is sorta similar, except the pushers and the case of course and the crown, but it does seem consistent with mine...

in regards to the first one, I've seen the script on the dial in that style before... but not sure if it's an authentic style or not... but that bridge seems inconsistent with the script too...

The third one does have movement photos and with a two register should be valjoux 7730 like mine... third one actually doesn't look too bad either come to think of it... :?
Author:  MasterMark [ Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with 60s Breitlings (incl Top Time)!
Hi JLee, thanks for contribution!

Re the 3rd one, yes, the seller informed me he was wrong about the front-loading aspect (Roffensian was indeed correct!) and so he just put extra photos up. Good service if nothing else!

I take Roffensian's point about a piece with proper, traceable history being much more valuable, but I guess that's the problem - i wouldn't be able to afford it! Plus, value is subjectve - if there are 18 (genuine) people bidding above €1,100 for it, then I guess that's the value you have to assign to it, whether it's "worth" that much or not...
Author:  The Engineer [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with 60s Breitlings (incl Top Time)!
Hi Mark,

Welcome to the Breitling world, nice to read your posts, the way in which you ask your questions and have received the replies.

I too struggle with finding the right vintage watch, most of the ones that look good have at sometime been gently played with or have major problems and as you say finding your watch at the right price is a minefield especially if you are shopping on eBay, my advice would be to take it slow, don't rush into the first deal you see, or chase the price higher and higher, bide your time and your watch will come to you.

And a big thanks to Roff, and others for spending the time and effort keeping those of us who have little knowledge on the straight and narrow.

Ian.
Author:  MasterMark [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with 60s Breitlings (incl Top Time)!
Hi Ian, thanks for the welcome and the (required) reminder not to rush into things. It really is tempting!

I'll second the comment about the help received from others - the knowledge base is astounding, as is the willingness to help (and quickly)!
Author:  Roffensian [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with 60s Breitlings (incl Top Time)!
jlee5050 wrote:
in regards to the first one, I've seen the script on the dial in that style before... but not sure if it's an authentic style or not... but that bridge seems inconsistent with the script too...

The third one does have movement photos and with a two register should be valjoux 7730 like mine... third one actually doesn't look too bad either come to think of it... :?



The script logo is less common but correct, in style at least - I still think that it's a redial. The problem is the bridge being printed vs. the dial being script and obviously the bridge quality leaves a lot to be desired.

I agree that the added movement photos look good on the third, the differences in finish / shade on the bridge always make me nervous, but I think here that it's fine - the balance cock and other movement bridges are similar so I agree that this one is starting to look pretty good.
Author:  MasterMark [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with 60s Breitlings (incl Top Time)!
Great stuff (again), thank you. So is it fair to say that (should you HAVE to choose) and that they cost the same, based on the info available you'd say the 3rd one was the better deal of the two (excluding personal preference re style!)? Incidentally, the bidding on the 2nd one looks slightly odd. All private bidders (not strange in itself, I guess dealers would buy on the bay also?), so potentially some inflated bidding (although a risky action for a big seller).

Incidentally, the 2 I saw in the dealer's shop in London (not 100% sure if I'm allowed to say the name of the dealer?) are priced at £1,500 for an 810 model (black dial, triple silver sub-dials) and £1,300 for a 2002 (black dial, double silver sub-dial). Both serviced. From my research I've seen that services for the TT can be anywhere from £100-£400, so I guess unless you know exactly what's wrong with it, you're better off getting one that's been recently serviced....
Author:  Roffensian [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with 60s Breitlings (incl Top Time)!
MasterMark wrote:
Great stuff (again), thank you. So is it fair to say that (should you HAVE to choose) and that they cost the same, based on the info available you'd say the 3rd one was the better deal of the two (excluding personal preference re style!)? Incidentally, the bidding on the 2nd one looks slightly odd. All private bidders (not strange in itself, I guess dealers would buy on the bay also?), so potentially some inflated bidding (although a risky action for a big seller).

Incidentally, the 2 I saw in the dealer's shop in London (not 100% sure if I'm allowed to say the name of the dealer?) are priced at £1,500 for an 810 model (black dial, triple silver sub-dials) and £1,300 for a 2002 (black dial, double silver sub-dial). Both serviced. From my research I've seen that services for the TT can be anywhere from £100-£400, so I guess unless you know exactly what's wrong with it, you're better off getting one that's been recently serviced....


There soesn't have to be something wrong with a watch for it to need servicing - servicing is needed every 3 - 5 years on these older pieces simply because springs wear out, the oil needs refreshing, etc.

Dealer prices are what I would expect - especially in London. They have their profit and overhead and of course some negotiation room there.

As for the second auction, this style of listing on German auctions always makes me nervous. Walking a delicate line here, there are a number of related dealers who try to convince the world that they aren't related that move things around and ultimately try to inflate prices. Is that happening here, no idea, but personally I prefer the 3rd piece although I would pass at the current price.
Author:  MasterMark [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with 60s Breitlings (incl Top Time)!
Good point re the related dealers.

Time to start bartering, see how much he's willing to drop on the price....

Any idea on this option? The price differential seems baffling, which suggests I'm missing something (it states the movement is Angelus, I thought it was meant to be a Venus 178 which is what I can see on the movmt photo). I appreciate I'm asking an awful lot of questions - please let me know if this is poor form, don't want to abuse everyone's helpfullness.

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-bre ... 38581.html
Author:  Roffensian [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with 60s Breitlings (incl Top Time)!
Movement is a Venus 178.

It's an unusual colour for an 810 - silver and black are more common, but I can't see anything wrong with it. Hour, minute and chrono seconds hands are original, and I think that the others might be too. Crown and pushers look original too.

Get a photo with the serial number - should be on the inside of the caseback, but it looks OK to me.
Author:  vintagechrono [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with 60s Breitlings (incl Top Time)!
Hello to everybody,

I'm a top time afficionado as well and joined this forum for the vintage chrono's.
Personally the Angelus top time looks horrible to me, not talking about the goldfilled case :( , the poorly redone dial and the anonymous crown...
Thanks to the poster who set the 3 links online, personally I will consider the 3rd watch, it looks perfect to me ( All original super condition and very classy ), besides after checking all internet, so far I could not find a better price.
Concerning the front loading, I had a similar one ( Ref. 2002 ) a few years ago and indeed it was like that.
The crown a bit "off" is because you can take it out yourself if you pull hard and push it back in again, so it depends if you are perfectionnist or not when you do it.
I think that the top time is the best deal in the vintage chrono's, classy, easy to wear Breitlings. 8)
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