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Can anyone date my Navtimer?
https://www.breitlingsource.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=20696		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Julian64 [ Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Can anyone date my Navtimer?
Hi, I was sent here by a member to date my fathers Navtimer.

http://thumbsnap.com/s/oCoStOO7.jpg

http://thumbsnap.com/s/zxw8sjWH.jpg

http://thumbsnap.com/s/34j5SpSk.jpg

Okay the movement under all that dirt says 'wog', the back of the case has 806 stamped on it , and inside the serial number is 932855.

The reason I'm asking is that my 77 year old father is considering taking his old watch apart to try and fix it.

Before he does this I wonder if its the best thing to do and wonder if I could ask the knowledgeable on here how much money he is about to risk.

Its a watch he bought from an american PX store in Berlin during the Berlin airlift somehwere between 1940 and 1950. German money wasn't worth much during this time compared to the US dollar from people flying in to help. Its worked flawlessly until just before the weekend when it stopped for no apparent reason.


He's not keen on taking it to a watch repairer because of the cost.
Author:  chronomaster818 [ Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can anyone date my Navtimer?
looks like a navi 806 from early 50's to late 60's.. seen them selling between 3 and 5k usd. depending on condition
Author:  Julian64 [ Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can anyone date my Navtimer?
Wouldn't really fit the history if that were true. Would have to be pre 50's. The Berlin airlift finished in May 1949.
Author:  DOW [ Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can anyone date my Navtimer?
http://www.lesmala.net/jean-michel/navitimer/index2.htm

Nice Watch. Try this site for all things Navitimer.
The S/N per year page says it is 1960 for that serial number. The movement looks like a Venus 178, the one to have. I believe Breitling can restore a watch like this, and it seems to me that you would get the cost of restoration back in the increased value. I don't think I would mess about with the inside unless I knew I had the skills necessary.
It also says that the first 806 was made in 1952. Could your dates be wrong ?
I would say 2-3K GBP when restored, depending on how well it was done, and how original it looked. Letting the man in the corner shop fettle it might leave it worth less than it is now.
Author:  Julian64 [ Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can anyone date my Navtimer?
yep I'm starting to think his dates are wrong. I'll go back to him with the serial number says its 1960 info. Thanks
Author:  Roffensian [ Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can anyone date my Navtimer?
Jean-Michel's site is useful, b ut for history of the Navitime you are far better off with Alan's - http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=25057

Breitling claim that the watch was introduced in 1952, some experts believe that the first ones actually appeared in 1954 - there are a lot of topics here on that alone.

The 1960 watches are always difficult to validate as this was a transition period between the first and second generation 806s, but this looks like a fine example of a first generation watch with no problems. The movement is a Venus 178, the WOG code is a Breitling export code and is what we want to see on the balance cock.

Please don't let your father take it apart, it needs a professional restoration, in this shape it's not going to be worth more than $2,000 or so because it clearly hasn't been serviced and looks like the movement has some serious issues. Professionally restored and with a new crystal it will be worth $4,000 or so on a good day, especially if you can wait for the economy to come back a bit more.

As for the Berlin airlift - your father would have only been 16 years old when that ended.
Author:  Roffensian [ Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can anyone date my Navtimer?
chronomaster818 wrote:
looks like a navi 806 from early 50's to late 60's.. seen them selling between 3 and 5k usd. depending on condition



Take a look at some of the many threads here on 806s, or read through Alan Trott's site that I posted the link for and you'll see that date range is too wide.

Even without the serial number to date it exactly the black subdials tell you that this can't be later than the early 60s - the subs would be white, and by the late 60s the smaller subdials will have been replaced with large ones.

The hands are also only correct for a first generation (although of course old hands could be put on a later watch) and the all black sliderule also means that it's early 60s at the latest (unless the sliderule is a replacement).

Finally, the rice bezel makes it an earlier piece and the number of grains / beads is an indicator of how early / late it is within the earlier pieces.
Author:  jlee5050 [ Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can anyone date my Navtimer?
I wonder if a certain member cares to chime in... :popcorn:
Author:  Kurt B [ Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can anyone date my Navtimer?
There’s not a lot to say that hasn’t already been said.

The watch is 100% original, and was produced in 1960.

The tritium on the markers are very dark, that has a negative influence to the value, and then there’s some corrosion in the movement, it’s hard to see from the picture how bad it is, and it might be below the dial as well.

Get in contact with Mark Heist of Horological Services http://www.horologicalservices.com/ he will do the best job and at a fair price.

You can read the story of the Navitimer here and see pictures of a similar watch as well http://vintageure.dk/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=109

/ Kurt B
Author:  alexmedwejew [ Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can anyone date my Navtimer?
Quote:
You can read the story of the Navitimer here and see pictures of a similar watch as well http://vintageure.dk/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=109


This story is not true.

here i have found a better website where you can read the true history of the Navitimer 806. Use the english translation.
http://breitling.lu/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=1058
Author:  Roffensian [ Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can anyone date my Navtimer?
alexmedwejew wrote:
Quote:
You can read the story of the Navitimer here and see pictures of a similar watch as well http://vintageure.dk/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=109


This story is not true.

here i have found a better website where you can read the true history of the Navitimer 806. Use the english translation.
http://breitling.lu/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=1058



OK, if you are going to be like that then let's do this publicly for all to see.........


People come to this site to learn about their watches. They aren't familiar with the politics and biases of individuals and they shouldn't have to give a damn.

The first couple of posts in this thread were by well meaning posters who were trying to help out. They perhaps didn't have as much knowledge of 806s as some members, but it's great to see new contributors in the vintage section - that's how we all learn.

What people enquiring about their watches should not have to deal with is garbage posts that serve no purpose. I am formally warning you that if you step out of line with one more inflamatory post like this then you will be banned. I am 99% sure that you are Norbert / Michael / some other name and this post does not help your cause.

Not only is this thread entirely misleading it is a personal attack on Kurt.

So let's post a few facts about Kurt and Michael / Norbert- things that perhaps some members don't know. If you are not Michael / Norbert then you can't possibly object to all the facts coming out.

Kurt is in the process of publishing information on the 806 in recognised publications. He buys and seels watches, particularly Navitimers, and has a track record of selling extremely good quality pieces.

Michael / Norbert / whoever has a reputation in the collecting world of selling frankenwatches and outright fakes claiming them to be very rare Breitlings. He has masqueraded as multiple different users on most of the major watch forums and has been banned multiple times from those sites (including this one). He has had multiple eBay IDs banned for fraudulent transactions. He claims that Breitling is interested in buying his collection, but I have heard suggestions that Breitling have in fact had lawyers investigating potential action against him (although I don't know that to be a fact).

Kurt and I don't agree 100% on the very early 806s, and I provided a link to Alan's WUS posting which is more in line with my thinking. Some other members on here share my opinion, some share Kurt's. We can all agree to disagree and move forwards.

However, no collector in their right minds would find the propaganda that you linked to to be a serious piece of objective writing on the 806 and you reveal a lot about yourself by supporting it.

As a moderator of this forum I will not allow one member's personal bias to poison the invaluable service that members provide to vintage Breitling owners.
Author:  DOW [ Sun Jul 04, 2010 7:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can anyone date my Navtimer?
It must be quite offputting for a new member to seek information about a family timepiece and a lot of the thread gets taken up with politics and accusations. I have been reading and occasionaly contributing to some navitimer threads in the last 4 months or so, having read and learnt a lot, before buying my 1966 809, but this all leaves a bad taste in my mouth. What is going on guys and why ?
Author:  bobfireman [ Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can anyone date my Navtimer?
I would like to add my opinion to this thread please. I have recently dealt with Kurt and I have nothing but praise for him, he sent me numerous pictures and answered hundreds of questions that I kept sending. They were all answered very promptly and I must say he has the patience of a saint! I have wanted an 806 for years but until now I have not been in a position to buy one. But I now own a beautiful authentic watch, with which I could not be happier. We had one small hick up that the hour register seemed to have a mind of its own and registered hours when the chrono was not running. I contacted Kurt who was very apologetic and immediately arranged for it to be fixed here in the UK at absolutely no cost to me. It is now running like the proverbial Swiss watch (which it is!!) and I could not be more pleased. So if you want any advice or to buy an 806 contact Kurt first, this man knows what he is talking about. And I will not have a bad word said against him. I will post some pics when I work out how to do it.
Regards to all Bob :lingsrock:
Author:  Roffensian [ Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can anyone date my Navtimer?
DOW wrote:
It must be quite offputting for a new member to seek information about a family timepiece and a lot of the thread gets taken up with politics and accusations. I have been reading and occasionaly contributing to some navitimer threads in the last 4 months or so, having read and learnt a lot, before buying my 1966 809, but this all leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


I completely agree, it's very sad.


DOW wrote:
What is going on guys and why ?



Well, cut a long story short.........

There was a member here who was a high profile seller of Breitlings, vintage and modern. While he undoubtedly had access to some nice pieces he has also been accused of selling fakes / frankenwatched. I'm not getting into specifics, but suffice it to say that a number of watches have been asked about in the past and my (and other) responses have always been that the price is far too high and in most cases the watches are badly flawed. The seller claimed that they were just incredibly rare. He was eventually banned for having multiple user IDs.

Many members have called him out in the past both here and in other places, but he has a well known issue with Kurt in particular. The link posted by alexmedwejew is to one of the former member's sites where the former member offers his own opinion of the history of Navitimers and personally attacks Kurt's thoughts on the history of the 806.

Many members on here are convinced that alexmedwejew is another username being used by the banned member to try and circumvent the ban. Some of those people are frustrated that I haven't banned him already. I have access to a number of tools and find some of the information from them concerning, but have never had proof. This post ramps up the suspicion - we aren't dealing with a split in the collecting world where half agree with Kurt and half agree with the banned member - I know of no independent supporters of the banned individual.

As to why - I don't know. Why does anyone insist on behaviour that is designed to infuriate and provoke others?

I hav said before that this forum has the opportunity to truly advance global knowledge of vintage Breitlings - we have that level of knowledge among members. It saddens me that it gets derailed by personal vendettas and puts me in a very difficult position - as a moderator do I keep abrasive members here because they have things to offer, or ban them and lose their knowledge? I don't know the answer, and am not looking for others to tell me, but it's disappointing that I have to make that decision.
Author:  Roffensian [ Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can anyone date my Navtimer?
bobfireman wrote:
I will post some pics when I work out how to do it.


Bob,

Pictures up to 250k can be attached directly to posts, larger than that then follow the instructions here - viewtopic.php?f=5&t=453

Congratulations on joining the 806 club!
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