The Breitling Watch Source Forums :: View topic - What do you fellows make of this statement by Richter?>>>

"During the twenties and thirties, many small firms were founded in the Swiss Jura that provided gears, hands, even watch cases with complete movements... Because of this diversity of labor within a limited market, Breitling's production was completely abandoned (emphasis mine). This was because it was more costly for Brellting to create and maintain in-house manufacturing operations than to purchase components elsewhere... In La Chaux-de-Fonds, where only production was carried on, the firm got by with limited personnel, and the production was limited to finishing the movements purchased from other firms, adjustments and setting the movement into the case."

I have always been surprised at how much more a vintage Rolex chrono is worth compared to a similar no name brand with the same movement and case. Compare the Valjoux 72C Rolex Dato-Compax, it cost more as 50.000,- $.

But that's a satement by someone with a vested interest in talking up the value of Breitlings relative to Rolex.

But compare the Breitlig Datora with the normal Rolex Dato-Compax, its the same in rariity, the same case and the same movement Valjoux 72 C, only the Breitling Datora with Venus 191 is more rare and upper quality.

What can I tell you, Michael? Fair or unfair in one's mind, Rolex will always get the big bucks. Breitling will get its due and more to come in the future, I agree with you there. But Rolex is Rolex and there are simply more competing fans with more money willing to pay very high prices to get the Vintage Rolex toys that they want. This is just a fact of life and we can do nothing about it.
Best,
T.

Yes ok.

And I think another important reason. Breitling is only to cheap for the big players with more money in the vintage market .

So we must wait till the Breitling prices comes in the area of interesting prices for big players. A lot of Breitling vintages have what it takes to, special the Datoras, the Co-Pilots, also the first Navitimers.

In the meantime, I suppose I'll just enjoy these "reasonable" $3-7k+ prices while I can. :wink:

Best,
T.

Author:	tomvox1 [ Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:	What do you fellows make of this statement by Richter?>>>
Quote: "During the twenties and thirties, many small firms were founded in the Swiss Jura that provided gears, hands, even watch cases with complete movements... Because of this diversity of labor within a limited market, Breitling's production was completely abandoned (emphasis mine). This was because it was more costly for Brellting to create and maintain in-house manufacturing operations than to purchase components elsewhere... In La Chaux-de-Fonds, where only production was carried on, the firm got by with limited personnel, and the production was limited to finishing the movements purchased from other firms, adjustments and setting the movement into the case." (p. 26, 3rd Edition) How would you interpret this business about Breitling's "production" being completely abandoned? Does he mean primarily in-house movement development and manufacture or the whole shebang, i.e. taking delivery of essentially completed watches and just tweaking them a bit by adding their own dials/crowns/bridges? Could it be that other companies were also purchasing these same exact components from the same suppliers but independent of Breitling and then assembling their own versions, such as the clone "Premiers" and other models from Welsbro, Mervos, Belmar, etc? Do you even agree with Richter's contention here that Breitling's sole remaining areas of watch development were in the concept (i.e. Chronomat slide rule, AVI digital counter, etc) and dial design? All opinions welcome & TIA, T.

Author:	Roffensian [ Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What do you fellows make of this statement by Richter?>>>
I would interpret it as movement production, especially based on the comment about finishing movements. Remember thatat the start of the 20th century watches were still very much about the look. Movement manufacturers were seen as 'lesser', and movements were just a necessary evil that firms had to deal with. In the 20s and 30s this was starting to change with the movement manuifacturers starting to work together as what would become Ebauches SA, but it would have been a logical step for Breitling to 'give up' movement manufacture and focus instead on the decoration and assembly.

Author:	chronodeco [ Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What do you fellows make of this statement by Richter?>>>
As a watchmaker I tend to look at the insides of a watch and the quality of the parts, particularly the case. I have always been surprised at how much more a vintage Breitling chrono is worth compared to a similar no name brand with the same movement and case. They really were a mid quality producer/assembler of chronographs from the late 40s until they stopped using generic cases (I will exclude the Navitimer from this comment as it always had a unique case). It just shows how important sales and promotion are in creating some kind of mystique that makes any product desirable, particularly long term. Craig

Author:	breitlingmuseum [ Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What do you fellows make of this statement by Richter?>>>
Code: I have always been surprised at how much more a vintage Breitling chrono is worth compared to a similar no name brand with the same movement and case. They really were a mid quality producer/assembler of chronographs from the late 40s until they stopped using generic cases (I will exclude the Navitimer from this comment as it always had a unique case). It just shows how important sales and promotion are in creating some kind of mystique that makes any product desirable, particularly long term. I have always been surprised at how much more a vintage Rolex chrono is worth compared to a similar no name brand with the same movement and case. Compare the Valjoux 72C Rolex Dato-Compax, it cost more as 50.000,- $. They really were a mid quality producer/assembler of chronographs from the late 40s until they stopped using generic cases It just shows how important sales and promotion are in creating some kind of mystique that makes any product desirable, particularly long term.

Author:	Roffensian [ Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What do you fellows make of this statement by Richter?>>>
breitlingmuseum wrote: I have always been surprised at how much more a vintage Rolex chrono is worth compared to a similar no name brand with the same movement and case. Compare the Valjoux 72C Rolex Dato-Compax, it cost more as 50.000,- $. But that's a satement by someone with a vested interest in talking up the value of Breitlings relative to Rolex.

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Author:	tomvox1 [ Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What do you fellows make of this statement by Richter?>>>
breitlingmuseum wrote: I have always been surprised at how much more a vintage Rolex chrono is worth compared to a similar no name brand with the same movement and case. Compare the Valjoux 72C Rolex Dato-Compax, it cost more as $50.000. Much, much more: http://beta.antiquorum.com/catalog/2008 ... -2008/228/ Rolex and Breitling are simply apples and oranges. People love the Coronet and will pay a premium to buy into the Rolex Club, that brand mystique that Craig mentions, which cannot be underestimated. Also, Rolex produced relatively few chronographs and even fewer complications, whereas Breitling's main output was really chronograph watches, although they too gave up Triple Dates after the 1950s. And of course, the Oyster case (of which there is no vintage "no name" equivalent really) is both proprietary and iconic and most Breitling cases are not, so that is a not inconsequential difference, IMHO. This also leads to old Rolex Oysters being a bit tougher than most of their vintage brethren and so one is able to wear them without too much babying, a fact which I personally find very appealing. Still and all, I think that if we are talking strictly in terms of Vintage price trends, Breitling more than holds its own with many other brands and has seen substantial appreciation in the last 5 or so years. If they do not quite have the cache of Rolex, nonetheless a rarity like the digital AVI will fetch significantly more $ than a most vintage 18k yellow gold Datejusts, Presidents or "common" sports models like the standard matte dial 5513 Subs or 1675 GMTs. So I say don't get too caught up in how Breitlings compare to Rolex but rather be satisfied in the strides they have made on their own terms and the magic of their wonderful and unique designs. And of course, for the collector the fact that prices are not absolutely stratospheric is a good thing. Best, T.

Author:	tomvox1 [ Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What do you fellows make of this statement by Richter?>>>
breitlingmuseum wrote: But compare the Breitlig Datora with the normal Rolex Dato-Compax, its the same in rariity, the same case and the same movement Valjoux 72 C, only the Breitling Datora with Venus 191 is more rare and upper quality. What can I tell you, Michael? Fair or unfair in one's mind, Rolex will always get the big bucks. Breitling will get its due and more to come in the future, I agree with you there. But Rolex is Rolex and there are simply more competing fans with more money willing to pay very high prices to get the Vintage Rolex toys that they want. This is just a fact of life and we can do nothing about it. Best, T.

Author:	breitlingmuseum [ Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What do you fellows make of this statement by Richter?>>>
Quote: What can I tell you, Michael? Fair or unfair in one's mind, Rolex will always get the big bucks. Breitling will get its due and more to come in the future, I agree with you there. But Rolex is Rolex and there are simply more competing fans with more money willing to pay very high prices to get the Vintage Rolex toys that they want. This is just a fact of life and we can do nothing about it. Best, T. Yes ok. And I think another important reason. Breitling is only to cheap for the big players with more money in the vintage market . So we must wait till the Breitling prices comes in the area of interesting prices for big players. A lot of Breitling vintages have what it takes to, special the Datoras, the Co-Pilots, also the first Navitimers.

Author:	chronodeco [ Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What do you fellows make of this statement by Richter?>>>
Clearification - I meant only to compare Breitling with others who do NOT produce inhouse movements. That leaves Rolex and a lot of other high end collector chronos (that only used the Valjoux 72 and 72c) out of the equation. Chronographe Suisse and others plus Breitling used the Venus cal 188 and comparible cases - that be an example of what I am talking about. Craig

Author:	tomvox1 [ Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What do you fellows make of this statement by Richter?>>>
breitlingmuseum wrote: Yes ok. And I think another important reason. Breitling is only to cheap for the big players with more money in the vintage market . So we must wait till the Breitling prices comes in the area of interesting prices for big players. A lot of Breitling vintages have what it takes to, special the Datoras, the Co-Pilots, also the first Navitimers. Well, I'm not sure that's how the law of supply and demand operates but...maybe! In the meantime, I suppose I'll just enjoy these "reasonable" $3-7k+ prices while I can. Best, T.

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Author:	breitlingmuseum [ Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What do you fellows make of this statement by Richter?>>>
I dont compare the Rolex Oyster with the Breitling Datora in normal case. I know the Rolex Oyster cost till 200.000,- $ But the Breitling Datora in the Oyster case is a much more big rarity. But compare the Breitlig Datora with the normal Rolex Dato-Compax, its the same in rariity, the same case and the same movement Valjoux 72 C, only the Breitling Datora with Venus 191 is more rare and upper quality. Please compare here in ea german auction Dr. Crott An important, very fine gent's wristwatch with chronograph, calendar and moon phase Case: steel, push back, Rolex buckle. Dial: two-coloured silvered, indexes, auxiliary seconds, 30 min. and 12h counter, tachy scale, day-, date- and month indication, baton hands. Movm.: 2/3 plate movement, rhodium-plated, ground, 17 jewels, mirror-polished screws, finely ground bevelled chronograph steel parts, ratchet wheel, Glucydur screw balance, blued hairspring, shock protection for balance. Ref. 4768 Rolex began their production of calendar chronographs in 1947, because after the Second World War a high-quality watch had to have a date indication. Even though much information is provided on the dial, the structuring assures a clearness of display. Only about 220 pieces of ref. 4768, the chronograph "Anti-Magnetique Dato Compax" were ever produced; the watch impresses with its elegant dial, the unostentatious case and the drop lugs which came into favour in the 1940s. This extraordinary composition gives the watch its particular allure and increases its collector's value. This distinguished example is in excelent condition. Source: "Rolex Chronographen" by Paolo Gobbi, Munich 2004, p. 366. 29877 G/C: 2 Z/D: 2, 8 W/M: 2, 41, 51 28.000 - 32.000 EUR 38.200 - 43.700 USD