| The Breitling Watch Source Forums https://www.breitlingsource.com/phpBB2/ |
|
| Warning, fake 809 Cosmonaute on eBay. https://www.breitlingsource.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=16325 |
Page 1 of 1 |
| Author: | Kurt B [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Warning, fake 809 Cosmonaute on eBay. |
First of all I would like to present myself as I am new to this Forum. My name is Kurt Broendum, I collect vintage 806 & 809 Navitimers & Cosmonautes and have done so for more then 10 years, I do owe a large collection that can be seen here http://vintageure.dk/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=109 I recently discovered this Cosmonaute on eBay http://cgi.ebay.com/BREITLING-Uhr-Navit ... 35a69ffc84 It is what we call "a Frankenstein" watch, it has a fake watchcase, pushers & crown, and I decided to send the following question to seller. I have always been told that when it says "stainless Steel Back" on the back it should be a gold plated watch, isn’t that correct can you please send me a picture of the certificate of Authenticity ? Here is his answer.: In generel you might be right, but there have been several exceptions, especially in the year 1967 and the serial numbers starting with 116.... have been different. During this time, the Breitling Navitimer has been combined with leftover parts of previous years. That is how this combinations occured. The certificate you will receive with the watch. All watches with papers are for security reasons in different bank vaults, i hope you understand it is too costly in terms of time to make extra pictures for every question we receive and we receive a lot. Check our feedback, the watch is absolutely original and 100% as described! Regards, David Ottenlinger If you want to have more informations, you can visit the Internet Forum of our client Mr. März at breitlingloung.de He is a real expert for breitling watches! Never have I heard so much rubbish before, it is obvious that he either knows nothing about what he is talking about, or that he deliberately is trying to sell a faked watch. I do not know who this “real expert for Breitling watches”, Mr. März is, and will not waste my time in visiting him on what appears to be his Forum. I show a picture below that clearly shows the difference in the 2 watch cases, and why th eBay piece is a fake. If you have any questions about 806 / 809 Navitimers or Cosmonautes in general, then feel free to ask them to me here or via PM, then I will be sure that you get a proper answer. I am, Kurt B |
|
| Author: | br549 [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Warning, fake 809 Cosmonaute on eBay. |
|
|
|
| Author: | breitlingmuseum [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Warning, fake 809 Cosmonaute on eBay. |
Hello Kurt, if you calmed yourself again, then I can explain it special for you again: I have had more than 30 Navitimers and Cosmonautes from 1967 in my hands, and all those with the serial number 116th ... beginnigs where assembled from parts of the previous production, because Breitling wanted to use up its inventory in 1967. At that time, Breitling has also the 2nd time, the remnants of the Valjoux 72 installed, first in the Navitimer 806, then in the 816th. For these where extra again matching dials made. Also the remaining rice beaded bezels where used at this time. All this Navitimers from 1967 with serial-no. 116.... have parts from different periods and different watches, all orignal of the Breitling production. here a Navitimer with Valjoux 72 of 1967   
|
|
| Author: | Kurt B [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Warning, fake 809 Cosmonaute on eBay. |
Oh, by the way, Does anybody know what the 3 longer markers at 3, 6 & 9 on the subdial at 3 o'clock (those that are not on B'museums frankensteinwatch with a redone dial) is there for ? Make no doubt, Kurt B |
|
| Author: | tomvox1 [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Warning, fake 809 Cosmonaute on eBay. |
Kurt B wrote: Oh, by the way, Does anybody know what the 3 longer markers at 3, 6 & 9 on the subdial at 3 o'clock is there for ? Hi Kurt--good to see you here!  The 3-minute lines are fairly common on many 50s-60s chronographs as telephone charges back then were calculated in 3-minute increments. Thus, your watch could tell you when to hang up before having to pay for another 3-minute unit.  All the best, Tom |
|
| Author: | Kurt B [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Warning, fake 809 Cosmonaute on eBay. |
Hey Tom, G d to see you too....You are of course right on the 3 minute lines, I owe you a Carslberg, as they say "probably the best beer in the world". Anyway, it's here in Copenhagen, cold as the weather and waiting for you. Kurt B |
|
| Author: | Yaffle [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Warning, fake 809 Cosmonaute on eBay. |
Quote: The 3-minute lines are fairly common on many 50s-60s chronographs as telephone charges back then were calculated in 3-minute increments. There's always been some debate about whether this was the case or not - would a military watch that was produced to milspec have timing marks for telephone calls? Attachment: auricoste3.jpg Some believe it was simply a way of quickly reading the time in the first ten minutes after the chronograph being started. There's an interesting discussion about it here : http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t= ... sg_2455327 |
|
| Author: | jlee5050 [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Warning, fake 809 Cosmonaute on eBay. |
br549 wrote: Can I have some?
|
|
| Author: | tomvox1 [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Well... |
Yaffle wrote: Quote: The 3-minute lines are fairly common on many 50s-60s chronographs as telephone charges back then were calculated in 3-minute increments. There's always been some debate about whether this was the case or not - would a military watch that was produced to milspec have timing marks for telephone calls? Attachment: auricoste3.jpg Some believe it was simply a way of quickly reading the time in the first ten minutes after the chronograph being started. There's an interesting discussion about it here : http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t= ... sg_2455327 ...here is a 1946 Manhattan phone book with rates:   So at least as early as 1946, 3-minute rates for person-to-person long distance (i.e. not "station to station") are in effect. As for the marks being "a way of quickly reading the time in the first ten minutes," I am not sure that really holds water, as delineations @ 3/6/9 only make the register a bit more difficult to read, no? Seems arbitrary for any legibility rationale--why not 2/4/6/8? At least that would be clean visually... And as for why the "telephone marks" would be present on issued military chronos (BTW, some do and many don't have them), I can think of two very good reasons: 1) The dial maker did not create a special plate for these watches (at least not for this era) and there were only minor alterations between the civilian and military versions. 2) An active duty soldier posted far from home would be in greater need of timing his long distance calls, not less than a workaday business man. Sure, "telephone 3/6/9 hashes" is just a theory, but I think it's a real solid one. Best, T. |
|
| Author: | Yaffle [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Warning, fake 809 Cosmonaute on eBay. |
Oops. Forget to credit the Auricoste picture. comes from here: http://www.finertimes.com/asp/articles/type20.asp |
|
| Author: | breitlingmuseum [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Warning, fake 809 Cosmonaute on eBay. |
Quote: Oops. Forget to credit the Auricoste picture. comes from here: http://www.finertimes.com/asp/articles/type20.asp Thanks, a very interesting articel, you see the great similarity to the co-pilot avi     
|
|
| Author: | Yaffle [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Warning, fake 809 Cosmonaute on eBay. |
Quote: Sure, "telephone 3/6/9 hashes" is just a theory, but I think it's a real solid one. It may well be the case for other manufacturers, but the argument looks less solid when you're dealing with tool watches designed for pilots by Breitling and others. I think thk the Breguet Type XX highlights a more convincing argument for these type of watches. "The Type 20 had a number of features that apparently were military specifications. The case was relatively large for a military watch at 38mm. The dial looked very much like the classic Tutima and Hanhart chronographs of WWII, black dial, luminous Arabic numerals and hands, a sweep second center column chronograph hand, and 2 subdials at 3 and 9 o'clock. The subdial at 9 was a small seconds indicator. The chronograph elapsed time subdial at 3 had special markings for 3, 6 and 9 minutes (like the new Breguet Type XX). The bezel rotated, in order to keep track of elapsed time. A classic watch in every respect and certainly beautiful." http://www.timezone.com/library/archives/archives0005 "The 3,6 and 9 markings on the elapsed time subdial were equally useful. Since these measured 5%, 10% and 15% of a hour, time-motion studies were possible." The Breguet is intitally produced with a thirty minute counter and five minute marks Attachment: b1 copy.jpg Then the military order it with the 15 minute counter dilineated by three minute marks. Attachment: b4.jpg http://www.fiftyfathoms.net/Breguet/Type20.html As Mikael has pointed out the AVI/Co-pilot also has a fifteen minute counter divided in three minute markings. http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=112 Some watches may well have added the marks for the telephone, but certainly to my mind when it comes to tool chronographs it's clear that three minute marks were used for a variety of calcualtions and measurements. |
|
| Page 1 of 1 | All times are UTC - 8 hours |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group https://www.phpbb.com/ |
|