The Breitling Watch Source Forums

Aww shucks....

I'm not perfect, any more than anyone else is, Paul and Craig have corrected me in the past and doubtless will again. The fact that the OP linked to a Breitling Lounge / Breitling Museum sale as a comparable isn't exactly making me nervous - we all know their reputation for 'creative restoration', and I will challenge anyone to show me a caseback with the Breitling logo looking like that on the inside of the case, and where it's 40 micron 'plating' (though that thick would have to be rolled / filled).

The bottom line for me though is that the movement simply looks wrong for a moonphase movement. The Venus 184 is the 178 based moonphase, and if need be I can put pictures side by side and demonstrate the many differences.

I've looked at a lot of vintage watches and offered my thoughts to many people on here - some with good news and some with bad, and even though we all know that at times the owner is simply trying to find out whether the watch can be passed off on eBay as the real thing I'll always try and state it as I see it, warts and all.

The only difference this time was the OP's story to go along with the watch. A good provenance is of great value when looking at a watch, but if the story can't hold water then to me that too tells me a lot about the watch, and if the OP isn't prepared to even leave the story on the post then I really have to wonder what's going on.

Paul usually stops by on the weekends and he won't be afraid to give an alternate opinion if he thinks I'm wrong, so maybe we'll get into a discussion about moonphase movements yet!

An obvious question - why make up the story?

A Venus 178 is a tricompax pillar wheel chronograph movement with a (usually) 30 minute counter, a 12 hour counter and a sub seconds dial. It is 14 lignes, manual wind, has 17 jewels, beats at 18,000 vph and when new had a power reserve of approximately 44 hours.

It is based on the Venus 175 family of movements. The Venus 184 is a moonphase movement based on the same family and is consistent with this dial layout. It looks like this:



Clearly different to yours, which you originally stated had been identified as a Venus 178 by your jeweller - from what I see, I agree.

Additionally, as I stated, the engraved Breitling on the inside (where it shouldn't be) of the caseback is horrible - just compare it to any other script Breitling and you'll see what I mean. I have also yet to see a model or serial number on the caseback, in fact I don't recall a picture of the outer caseback at all.

I'm sorry, but I stand by what I said, this watch is wrong. My guess would be a frankenwatch rather than an out and out fake.

That helps.

It's not a 178 movement - it's a 187 which is only a 13 ligne movement - and yes, I'll agree based on those photos that it's a moonphase movement. It didn't look like a 184 because it isn't!

I don't agree with your assessment that it's a rare Datora.

I'd like to see the outside of the caseback showing model and serial numbers

Well, I'm not seeing anything to change my mind.

The only thing on the movement that says Breitling is the bridge, and the bridge is not original to a Venus 187 movement - it's the worng shape. Additionally, the rest of the movement is certainly not an original Venus 187 based on any of the diagrams that I have.

The engraving on the caseback is inconsistent with Breitling - the statement that it's 40 micron gold plate. Additionally the only engraving of the Breitling name on the caseback is on the inside, not the outside where it would be (though no name would be acceptable) and the Breitling engraving is a bad attempt to add it by an amateur. There is also no model number - if it were correct we should be expecting 799 or 800.

This is a frankenwatch, likely South American in origin, and what's more - the dealer knew it. If it were original no dealer would have sold it for 1,450 Euros / $2,000 - they would have been asking 2 to 3 times that price.

If you don't believe me then that's fine, but I've got nothing more to say about this watch.

Well, I'm not seeing anything to change my mind.

The only thing on the movement that says Breitling is the bridge, and the bridge is not original to a Venus 187 movement - it's the worng shape. Additionally, the rest of the movement is certainly not an original Venus 187 based on any of the diagrams that I have.

The engraving on the caseback is inconsistent with Breitling - the statement that it's 40 micron gold plate. Additionally the only engraving of the Breitling name on the caseback is on the inside, not the outside where it would be (though no name would be acceptable) and the Breitling engraving is a bad attempt to add it by an amateur. There is also no model number - if it were correct we should be expecting 799 or 800.

This is a frankenwatch, likely South American in origin, and what's more - the dealer knew it. If it were original no dealer would have sold it for 1,450 Euros / $2,000 - they would have been asking 2 to 3 times that price.

If you don't believe me then that's fine, but I've got nothing more to say about this watch.

I saw the pictures and there's little doubt that this watch most likely is a fake from South-America.
The dial looks redone, caseback is wrong, and the movement dos not look right.

Well this thread is now utterly useless from an information perspective as the OP has deleted all his entire previous posts. Very helpful.