The Breitling Watch Source Forums

You still haven't given us any history of the watch. What do you know of its life? How did it come to you?

First let me say thanks for posting pictures of your watch. I have no opinion on whether it is genuine or not. I do have a few questions about Breitling's statements.



Back when this was first discussed, I posted an exert from a catalogue that I have which is roughly dated to about 1939. It is certainly prior to 1942 as it doesn't feature the Chronomat, but my gut is it's closer to the date I mentioned. Either way it clearly shows the square models, which are the same refs as the 1946 catalogue. So this model was certainly in production for somewhere between five to seven years. Interestingly the two catalogues show the same refs but with different dials.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=22012

I contacted Christies about an auction of theirs back in Nov 2010 where they had several Breitling's for sale.

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_ ... 5ae9d1e794

The lot notes state.

"According to the Archives of Breitling, the present watch was manufactured in 1945. It is one of only 200 examples of this model made in 18K pink gold, the case numbers ranging from 593'429 to 593'628, the cases made by Gabus Frère in Le Locle, Switzerland. "

I questioned them about this Breitling authentication and they assured me that Breitling had authenitcated it. Now clearly if Breitling are now saying that your ref "455149" comes from 1946, why are they telling Christie's ref 593429 started in 1945, which would be in line with Richters original published dates?

Christie's info on the lot would indicate that Breitling do have some specific records, which would also make sense given the release of "Breitling the Book", where did that info come from. Come to that where did Richter get the date list he originally published?

I do think we've been nicer to you than the crowd at WatchUSeek, where I did learn a little history of your watch.

"I did take the watch to a local auctioneer when I first acquired it some 20 years ago and they valued it at £30 which is why I still have it because my late father told me it cost him more than that when he bought it new..!. The next time I am in London I will take it to Sothebys or Christies along with the letter from Breitling and let you know what they think."

1. I really think that has to be an original Breitling 755 case. I think the watch left the Breitling factory with a dial just like one of the ones in the catalogs and with correct model and serial numbers on the case back.

2. I'm still standing on the position that it's had a major restoration that brought it a newly painted dial and a cleaned-up caseback. I'm inclined to believe that is the correct serial number, which would date the watch to before 1944 and since the movement is completely unmarked, I'm inclined to believe it was made close to 1944. Was your father on the continent around 1944-1946 or so?

3. I think the script "Breitling" inside the caseback may have been applied during the restoration to provide some identifier, otherwise missing from the watch. From that, I'm just guessing that restoration was done in the early 1950s, when it was common to re-paint the dial as part of regular service (or so I'm told, I wasn't fully aware then).

4. I think the "Premier" was added when the dial was redone only because that is the pattern they had on hand or the one on hand that they thought looked best. The one from the Breitling collection you show is similar, and I'm wondering if that is how the current Breitling company is dating your watch - from the appearance of "Breitling" on the dial, not the serial. I think they should have in their notes that "Premier" was introduced in 1945/1946. I wish we could have more images of that one. Can someone swing by Grenchen and snap a few images of the insides and back?

5. The current Breitling company with which you corresponded is not the original company and it acquired no records from the original company. They have been putting more effort into acquiring the history of the original company (and we can debate the merits of that elsewhere), but they have only bits and pieces it appears and cannot be relied on to be authoritative. In fact, I think there is a strong consensus in this forum that it is not possible to be authoritative and I think we present our judgments with appropriate qualifications.

6. Good luck with the sale. I think a big auction house is the best place for it and bidders can make up their own minds. Even in the condition I describe in my "scenario" (and it's just a story that fits what I see), it is a collector's piece that might fetch a good return

I'd think you'd have to agree that this Kelbert has enough similarities to the watch in question to justify our concerns. Does anyone know when adding the import code to the balance cock was started?

Very similar Paul (right down to the serial number).

The import codes are a result of the agreement between the US and Switzerland in 1936 that reduced import duties, but not sure when the marks actually began showing up - and don't think that it was consistent.

enigma. alias well chosen.

That Kelbert's actually kinda nice...

_________________
"I don't got the bright watch I got the right watch" -Jay Z

Far from being defensive I am perplexed as to why you are not prepared to accept the factory confirmation that the serial number is correct, they apologised for the mistake in refering to the movement as being a caliber 23 explaining that this was in fact a typographical error which they rectifiied. Further evidence is provided below from an Antiquorum Geneva sale in which a Breitling Premier chronograph Case No. 481083 ref 760 made in the 1950's was sold. Antiquorum have a record of ALL case numbers for Breitling, Rolex, Patek Philippe and Cartier amongst others. Perhaps you will now accept that confirmation that my watch with the serial number 456149 as being manufactured in 1946 contained in the letter of authenticity provided by Breitling is correct?. If not then both Breitling and Antiquorum will have to be informed because you are obviously more knowledgeable than either of them.


LOT 155
Important Collectors’ Wristwatches, Pocket Watches...
15-10-2006
Sold including buyer's premium:
3,304 CHF

Breitling, Genève, case No. 481083, Ref. 760. Made in the 1950s. Fine, stainless steel gentleman's wristwatch with square button chronograph, register, telemeter and tachometer scales.
C. Three-body, polished and brushed, lapidated lugs. D. Matte silver with painted radial Roman numerals, subsidiary “guilloché” dials for the seconds and the 45-minute register, minute and 1/5th seconds track, concentric tachometer scale, outer telemeter scale. Blued steel "bâton" hands. M. Cal. 14''', rhodium-plated, 18 jewels, straight-line lever escapement, monometallic balance, shock absorber, self-compensating “Breguet” balance spring, index regulator. Dial signed, case numbered. Diam. 38 mm.... continue

There are a number of lists available of Breitling serial numbers by year, and none of those lists agree with what Breitling are saying now. Consider for reference the serial numbers page at Jean-Michel's site - www.navitimer.net, the one in Benno Richter's book, the one at Watches to Buy - http://www.watchestobuy.com/BreitlingSerial.htm, etc

Breitling have never provided any indication that those numbers were wrong, so I am genuinely interested in knowing what new information Breitling now has (and remember that it's a different company). This isn't about your watch - if the serial number lists are wrong then this fundamentally changes the market for vintage Breitlings - is a 42 Chronomat now not a 42 Chronomat?, are there now documented 52 806s? - you see the impact. I am not discounting what Breitling are saying, I am wondering what new information has been discovered.

In terms of Antiquorum, their reputation is awful. Spend a few minutes googling Antiquorum mistakes or Antiquorum fake, etc and you'll see what I mean.