The Breitling Watch Source Forums

I thought I'd post something one here about another manufacturer I am a big fan of, the British car company Lotus. It seems that some people on here seem to think Breitling are moving away from their traditional values in some of their watches, and I thought I'd let you know what Lotus are doing which will put that into perspective.

In case you are unaware, Lotus are a long-standing sports car company, whose ethos in making cars is to make cars that are lightweight, fun weekend toys rather than big, heavy 'GT' cars like Aston Martin, Porsche, etc. Going back to Breitling, this is a company that has become famous in making instrument watches mainly for pilots. So the point is that both are 'prestigious' and famous in making something unique that goes sort of their own way rather than copying another manufactuer.

Lotus however have been losing money for a long time; I personally think it is to do with not marketing their cars properly, but what they have decided to do is basically look at the market leader, Porsche, and say 'mmm, Porsche have been making lots of money making cars you can use everyday, let's do the same'.

It would be like Breitling deciding to copy for example Rolex, abandoning the chronograph watch and making a watch like the Oyster, rather than producing watches that they do currently, which essentially is based around a number of different models, with the Chronomat and Navitimer being their most famous.

I personally think this is going to fail completely. I think this plan that Lotus have is completely mad. If we go back to Breitling, I think what they are doing is pretty superb; for example, their Bentley models don't interest me, but so what? They still have the Navitimer and Chronomat, watches that are traditional Breitling; what Lotus are planning to do is stop completely with making light cars altogether so are no light cars in their plan for a few years time. This is surely madness; reflected in sales figures in the UK of nine cars sold in Britain for the whole of September and October! Yes that is nine not nine hundred by the way... probably due to the fact that the buyers think that they have gone completely insane down in Hethel, Norwich... However this I feel is a sad end to a great car maker.

On a similar note, didn't Breitling go technically bust a number of years ago, but saved themselves by going back to their traditional roots of mechanical chronograph watches, that essentially saved them?

A British company, owned by the Malaysian government, who bought it from an Italian who bought it from General Motors.
British cars, containing Japanese movements. As far as I'm concerned, the Legend that was Lotus died when Chapman sold up.

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You mentioned low sales volume, im assuming youre talking about the evora. Since Lotus claims to have only made 700 worldwide for the 2010 model year and im assuming not much more for 2011, its not surprising that the numbers are low.

Lotus really saved themselves in a hard time by releasing the 111r elise and exige in america. Because of that, i highly doubt they have any interest in trying to follow in porsches footsteps.

As of right now, lotus is not trying to redesign their image. There are two reasons they are temporarily discontinuing the elise and exige. Lotus said the reason for the Elise and Exige being discontinued is the lack of continued availability of Toyota’s 1.8-liter 2ZZ engine. Another factor is that the cars airbags no longer meet safety standards requiring vehicles to have smart airbags that adjust deployment for the speed of impact.

A roadster version of the Evora is planned to fill in for the Elise and a redesigned Elise is set to arrive in the United States in 2015. I've also heard a few rumors that Lotus is preparing to release a V6 version of the Exige.

They are also planning on re-realeasing a new version of the lotus esprit. I wouldnt worry, Lotus knows what theyre doing. They have been around making fantastic cars for over 50 years, and i dont think its going to stop anytime soon.

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I disagree. The 111r elise and exige were arguably the best cars ever built by lotus.

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Limiting my comments to Breitling only, I don't agree with the premise; not at all.

After their collapse, Breitling developed a “new heritage” of watches that all said, "I'm a Breitling and don't you forget it!" And it qualifies as a true heritage in my book since it's now over a quarter century post introduction of the "new classic" Breitling - the launch of the Chronomat with rider tabs and the other distinctive styling cues that constitute the Breitling look.

It's true that Breitling also retained some more distant heritage - the Navitimer for instance. But most of what we have come to know as distinctly Breitling is post 1983 and most of that "new heritage" has been abandoned. Without the new heritage*, only the old heritage remains, which is essentially one watch - the Navi. One out of 25+ models, excluding the Bentley range, does not come close to superbly carrying the torch of tradition. IMHO.



*I haven’t forgotten about the Seawolf and SA, but am not optimistic they will remain unadulterated for long.

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SHARKMAN

Completely lost on the logic of this sorry - and Breitling today is a totally separate company from Breitling pre-1978. Nothing is the same except the same - no "saving themselves" involved.

This seemed more like a post about Lotus than it did Breitling. Maybe this should be moved to off topic?

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They are cracking cars, I agree, but they are as much GM and Toyota as they are Lotus depending on how we define a brand. Lotus the brand has been bought and sold several times since Lotus the man moved on. Aston Martin the same, an historic brand that has kept a familiar family face despite incestuous relationships with Jaguar / Ford platforms and finance. Prodrive had a dabble too, but the iconic brand name remains.
Lotus made GT's, even when it was still owned by Chapman...its arguable that a four door Lotus is no more a departure from the core ethos of the original founder, if its engineered to be light and efficient....trouble is Lotus is not the same company anymore, nor is the market. These cars could be built under a myriad of other brand names, but at the moment they are badged Lotus and the owners of Lotus want to sell cars to a wider market.
I suppose in that context some parallel could be made with Breitling as it exists now, compared to what it once was. And if you think about it, the association with Bentley has a similar twist that compliments the topic.

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I understand what you are saying, but how can you condemn Lotus for doing what almost every other car company in history has done? In fact one of the only companies i can think of that has stayed truely independant is mitsubishi who owns 100% of their own company and has not dabbled in partnerships with any other companies.

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Holy transgendered analogies, Batman! (That is to say, it's confused and confusing.) Like Sharkie, I'll just stick with Breitling, since I don't know enough about Lotus to comment intelligently.

Shark pretty much summed up my thoughts on this one. I'll just add that I don't see anybody here advocating that Breitling imitate Rolex. We want Breitling to stay Breitling - and that's the problem: they aren't. They seem to be chasing fads and trends, rather than staying true to their brand identity and ethos. One thing Rolex does that makes sense is that they understand their heritage and they honor it. They only introduce changes slowly over time, and most changes are incremental and are true improvements, rather than radical overhauls that only seem to be made for the sake of change. In that sense, I wouldn't mind if Breitling followed their example, but that has more to do with actions, rather than actual designs of watches. I would love it if Breitling embraced their recent (since 1984) heritage, rather than completely remaking themselves every five or so years. The Navi does seem to be sacrosanct, but all other models are subject to whatever arbitrary changes the designers want to make.

This will get the thread moved to off topic for sure. I'm not condemning (the owners of) Lotus at all. I actually like the cars a lot...but as a greater fan of Lotus as once it was, the origins, the history, the single minded and totally focussed approach Chapman had to design and engineering at any cost, I'm not really that dewey eyed about a well engineered and sublimely dynamic car that could have come from any maker with a conditional budget, talented design team and a desire to get a lot of performance wrung from a tiny engine....and I guess I'm just not as passionate as the OP is when I read that (the owners of) Lotus are wafting away the last wisp of Chapmans ghost. I love the look of what Lotus are planning, and I'm into big heavy GT's. If I had the money, I'd seriously consider one...but for the looks and engineering, not the legend behind the name. I used to follow Newcastle United FC too, but these days, it may as well be called Team A, B or C due to the limited connection it has to its origins and I dont follow them with any interest these days....but I'm still pleased when I read they have won a game, and so life goes on.
I design product for a cut-throat market....I have two differing maxims thrust upon me daily, 'evolution, not revolution' on the one hand, 'stand still, and you die' on the other. Breitling I'm sure, is just another of a thousand companies these days navigating a middle ground between the two.

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Yes I think I should have put this into a different forum within here. Hope it gets moved.

Anyway I just wanted to see what Breitling fans thought about this, as with Breitling we are talking about a manufacturer of watches, just like Lotus are a maker of cars, which are bought for more than the purpose of what the item is; for example to get something to tell the time you may as well go to the corner shop and spend £10 on a watch, just like you can get a decent car for £500. When you buy a Lotus or Breitling you are getting something unique, more than simply an item that tells the time or gets you from a to b, which is where I am coming from. We on here are fans of Breitling, by having one or more of their watches we gain a passion for the brand.

With Breitling, that uniqueness comes from making instrument watches; the Navitimer is similar to the 1960s version, it has evolved nicely. They have also embraced new technology with watches like the Emergency. Some of the watches may be against what people like, but the heritage is still there. The important factor here is a lot of the new watches are instantly recognisable as a Breitling, even if the B symbol was removed from the dial.

With Lotus however they basically want to ditch the unique heritage and essentially milk the 'brand value' for all its' worth. The proposed future cars have no design features that I recognise as uniquely Lotus, and they are really heavy - the current Evora for example is actually a heavy car, something that is as non-Lotus as it is possible to be. I have what I would consider a 'true' Lotus, a series 1 Elise, which is a fun weekend toy really, and not the sort of car you can use everyday; when new it was the lightest production car available. If I wanted more comfort, I would go for a Porsche; afterall the sports car you can use everyday is something that Porsche have been making for decades. Just like Patek Phillipe have been making beautiful watches that are at the very top in terms of craftsmanship; they always have done and they always will do. It is what makes them unique and the reason why fans buy them. If Lotuses lose this uniqueness I don't know why someone would buy one - afterall if Porsche have been making sports cars that Lotus are planning to start making, then why not buy a Porker, as they have been making that sort of car for decades? Adding to the madness of it all - Lotus have just introduced a range of merchandise that is actually more expensive than equivalent Aston Martin or Ferrari items. I don't think going upmarket has ever worked for any company in history - I can't think of any to be honest. I can just imagine Mr Chapman turning in his grave.

I am not against Lotus trying something to make money - it is just the ditching of their basic core principles, something that all the major Swiss watch makers would never do.

Im not quite sure what you're talking about here. There are several points you made im going to have to disagree with you on.

1: Porsche and Lotus are very different companies that build very different cars. And I think if Lotus were to "Mainstream" their cars, they wouldn't choose a company like Porsche to mimc.

2: I've never heard anybody speak of Porsche as making cars that are great as daily drivers. Maybe a Panamera? or even a cayenne, but i think any other Porsche would be a nightmare to drive every day. And again those are the only Porsches i would consider to be even the slightest bit comfortable.

3: Lotus has been making cars like the Esprit almost since the creation of the company. So Making the Evora is not really straying away from their roots.

4: With a curb weight of just 3,000 lbs i wouldnt go as far as to say the evora is a "heavy car". Maybe not quite as light as an elise, but certainly lighter than any Porsche on the market today. Also lighter than any Ferrari or Lamborghini as well.

5: As the Evora is the most expensive Lotus ever produced, im assuming thats what you're referring to when you said "Lotus have just introduced a range of merchandise that is actually more expensive than equivalent Aston Martin or Ferrari". But thats just not true, With a base MSRP of $61,000 the Evora is a long stretch from the (cheapest Aston Martin) Aston Martin V8 Vantage with a base MSRP of $118,000 - and Ferraris California with a base MSRP of $192,000.

6: And Last but not least, I don't think Lotus ditched their heritage at all. Look at the Elise and Exige. A lightweight, mid engine car with a short wheel base and small engine where power windows, carpets and even sun visors are optional extras.

At the end of the day, Lotus has not ditched any of their core values. I'm assuming youre basing this off the news that Lotus is due to temporarily discontinue the Elise and Exige. That news mixed with your obvious hatred for the Evora obviously is fueling your biased argument, But if you read my post above you would know that Lotus has already set a date to re-release the Elise and Exige. I also explained why it was being discontinued. And it definantly was not to revamp their image.

"As of right now, lotus is not trying to redesign their image. There are two reasons they are temporarily discontinuing the elise and exige. Lotus said the reason for the Elise and Exige being discontinued is the lack of continued availability of Toyota’s 1.8-liter 2ZZ engine. Another factor is that the cars airbags no longer meet safety standards requiring vehicles to have smart airbags that adjust deployment for the speed of impact.

A roadster version of the Evora is planned to fill in for the Elise and a redesigned Elise is set to arrive in the United States in 2015. I've also heard a few rumors that Lotus is preparing to release a V6 version of the Exige."

Lotus is taking the time to create a new platform to handle a different motor and the new and improved airbags. I'd rather they stop making the car for a few years and get it just right then just cramming some garbage into an inconic car.

I would say, take a breather and relax. Lotus hasn't sold out.

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Just want to answer the points made; I know it is a Breitling forum, but...

1: Porsche and Lotus are very different companies that build very different cars. And I think if Lotus were to "Mainstream" their cars, they wouldn't choose a company like Porsche to mimc.

-Mr Bahar, CEO of Lotus has stated that the new Lotus cars are in direct competiton to Porsche and Aston Martin.

2: I've never heard anybody speak of Porsche as making cars that are great as daily drivers. Maybe a Panamera? or even a cayenne, but i think any other Porsche would be a nightmare to drive every day. And again those are the only Porsches i would consider to be even the slightest bit comfortable.

-Yes, what I meant by everyday cars, is sort of relative; Porsches do have a certain number of creature comforts that make them relatively more useable that Lotuses.

3: Lotus has been making cars like the Esprit almost since the creation of the company. So Making the Evora is not really straying away from their roots.

-The Evora yes is a good car; but it is the future cars I am referring to. The current range does indeed include the Elise/Exige so as long as you have the light cars it makes the Evora make sense. Going back to the Breitling connection, as they have the Navitimer for example it makes the 'traditionalists' happy, as well as offering new models. This is a nice balance. The objection I have is ditching completely the light cars from their range which is what they plan to do in 2015.

4: With a curb weight of just 3,000 lbs i wouldnt go as far as to say the evora is a "heavy car". Maybe not quite as light as an elise, but certainly lighter than any Porsche on the market today. Also lighter than any Ferrari or Lamborghini as well.

-The Evora S weighs similar to a Porsche, but again this car isn't really a problem. But being pedantic, it does weigh twice as much as my Elise; the S1 really is quite light you know!

5: As the Evora is the most expensive Lotus ever produced, im assuming thats what you're referring to when you said "Lotus have just introduced a range of merchandise that is actually more expensive than equivalent Aston Martin or Ferrari". But thats just not true, With a base MSRP of $61,000 the Evora is a long stretch from the (cheapest Aston Martin) Aston Martin V8 Vantage with a base MSRP of $118,000 - and Ferraris California with a base MSRP of $192,000.

-No - the merchandise is the clothing; £1,000 for a leather jacket, for example, and £150 for driving gloves. A lot of similar items from Ferrari are cheaper, which is surely madness?

6: And Last but not least, I don't think Lotus ditched their heritage at all. Look at the Elise and Exige. A lightweight, mid engine car with a short wheel base and small engine where power windows, carpets and even sun visors are optional extras.

-Yes, like I say, the current cars are great; OK the Elise has got a little bit heavier, but when you see the proposed future Elise, it is very far from what the Elise is; from the fixed roof and pretty substantial weight.

But then again I suppose it means my car is increasing in value, getting pretty sought after now!

Thanks you for the elaboration. I think I understand what you are saying now.

"Mr Bahar, CEO of Lotus has stated that the new Lotus cars are in direct competiton to Porsche and Aston Martin."
In all fairness, he really only said that one of their cars would be direct competition. The Lotus Eterne, a GT sedan. This was made in direct competetition witht he Porsche Panamera and the Aston Martin Rapide.

"The Evora yes is a good car; but it is the future cars I am referring to. The current range does indeed include the Elise/Exige so as long as you have the light cars it makes the Evora make sense. Going back to the Breitling connection, as they have the Navitimer for example it makes the 'traditionalists' happy, as well as offering new models. This is a nice balance. The objection I have is ditching completely the light cars from their range which is what they plan to do in 2015."
Well remeber, the Eterne is not the first Lotus sedan. Remeber the Lotus Carlton? There were also such oddities as the Lotus Eclat and the Lotus Europa. So looking back at Lotus through the ages, it is not a new thing that they would create an odd and ugly car that doesnt fit in with their current line up. But, Lotus will be re introducing the Elise and Exige in 2015. While the Elise is no longer a sub 2000lb car , a 2400lbs successor isnt necessarily ditching the lightweight premise.

"The Evora S weighs similar to a Porsche, but again this car isn't really a problem. But being pedantic, it does weigh twice as much as my Elise; the S1 really is quite light you know!"
Yes yes, you S1 owners are quite spolied with your >1600lbs elise! My brother had an 05' 111r for a few years and i thought that was fantastic. Even so, that was tipping the scales at a modest 1,900 lbs.

"No - the merchandise is the clothing; £1,000 for a leather jacket, for example, and £150 for driving gloves. A lot of similar items from Ferrari are cheaper, which is surely madness?"
Ah, a miscommunication. my appologies.

"Yes, like I say, the current cars are great; OK the Elise has got a little bit heavier, but when you see the proposed future Elise, it is very far from what the Elise is; from the fixed roof and pretty substantial weight."
I understand what you are saying, but at 2,400lbs this car may still be one of the lightest cars in production.

I would say as of right now with the high sales volume (especially in the US) and various grants Lotus is doing very well and its not such a bad thing if they want to expand their line up from just two cars. This may be a good thing for the company as long as they keep their superlights (elise/exige) in the lineup.

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