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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:26 am 
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Congrats on the execution of the very nice Premier chronographs!

I really like the Gold/black and Steel/blue models.
A very classy touch for a modern Breitling and I'm sure they will attract some positive interest!

Two thumbs up from me!

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:48 am 
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@Fred - Can you tell us anything more about the B15 and B25 movements please?

As far as I know the old B15 was always 2892-based - and therefore an automatic with a 42 hour PR - but the "new" B15 in the Premier Heritage Duograph is a manual wind and has a 70 hour PR according to the Breitling website. So that would suggest it uses the B01 platform (and it certainly looks like it through the display back). If so, is the split-second module in-house or outsourced?

And the B25 in the Datora version - the B25 always used to be an ETA 2892-based chrono used in the Bentley range, while the old Montbrillant Datoras used the 7751-based B21. So is the "new" B25 a true in-house Manufacture as stated on the Breitling website, or is it's a modified 7751? The 48 hour PR would suggest it's not built on the B01 platform.

It'd be great if you could shed a bit of light on this as I always like transparency when it comes to movements. :thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:13 am 
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will.
just another 7 interviews today
and a clubhouse event


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:03 am 
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Ok I am very impressed! Great job Breitling! In recent years I have faded from the brand—now I am strongly considering pulling out my wallet for a new Breitling.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:09 pm 
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Fred, I’ll echo most of the comments on here and say job well done. The color choice on the heritage is a little out there as Driver mentioned but I really like it. I can’t see it being in a one watch collection but could easily seeing it part of a larger collection. I really like the choice of the blue dial on the Duograph but I’ll admit, my favorite is the copper dial Datora. Unfortunately all of these are more than I’m spending right now but I’m sure sales will be strong on these.

My only question is will they be bracelet options or as Driver asked, an expansion of dial options?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:16 pm 
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we had 12 dial versions in prototypes - from the very daring to the very classic.
the pistachio green was smack in the middle - something we have never seen on a classic chrono, but far from garish, so that was Georges’ choice, a fresh touch in a very classic setting.

these aren’t LE, SE or “Capsules”, they are “core catalog”, so I’m sure we’ll see other versions over the years.

we are a bit unsure which way to go w/ bracelets - mesh seems best, but no decision yet, in discussion.


Last edited by WatchFred on Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:23 pm 
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WatchFred wrote:
we had 12 dial versions in prototypes - from the very daring to the very classic.
the pistachio green was smack in the middle - something we have never seen on a classic chrono, but far from garish, so that was Georges’ choice, a fresh touch in a very classic setting.

these aren’t LE, SE or “Capsules”, they are “core catalog”, so I’m sure we’ll see other versions over the years.

we are a but unsure which way to go w/ bracelets - mesh seems best, but no decision yet, in discussion.
I like the fact we will see a variant of dial colours on the 40mm in the years to come. Seriously Fred, job well done! I have given you guys sh** over the years—however if you keep this kind of momentum I can easily see Breitling being a strong number 2 in the mass produced luxury watch section.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:24 pm 
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calibers:

B09 is in-house manual wind, 70h power reserve, crown wheel vertical clutch, COSC

B15 is based on the B09, adds a split chronograph complication similar to the one used on the B03, but modernized/modified.

The rattrapante mechanism doesn’t function in the same way as on the B03, we stopped using the rubber gasket for our rattrapante calibers as it wasn’t industrially feasible. We now use a traditional gearing on an Inox wheel. The patented isolating system found in the B03 is also utilized in the B15.

So as “in-house” as it gets for the B15 - a new, unique caliber, designed and manufactured by Breitling.

The Manufacture Caliber B25 is based on a Concepto caliber. Concepto is a "manufacture de mouvements mécaniques d'exception", it isn’t “in-house” Breitling.

Breitling decided to develop the caliber with Concepto, relying on their strong watch-manufacturing knowledge. Breitling & Concepto jointly enhanced the base caliber with specific Breitling requirements. One of the major enhancements was made on the calendar drive mechanism to ensure a "saut de calendrier" (calendar break/change), making it more accurate and reliable. This lengthy modification & homologation process lasted 1,5 years in total.
Breitling will be the first Brand to use this upgraded Concepto caliber on the watch-market.
Specific to Breitling, the concepto caliber has :
• rigorous testing & homologation as a "manufacture" caliber (hence 5-year warranty),
• specific lubrification points,
• specific caliber "decorations",
• specific oscillating weight (different from standard oscillating weights previously seen at Breitling).

hope this helps (I have no explanation why R&D decided to call this the B25, agree it may be confused w/ the 25B, but shouldn’t be a huge issue)?



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:41 pm 
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Hi Watchfred!
First of all, amazing new launch!

As Driver8 mentioned, the B25 is stated as a manufacture movement ("showcasing Breitlings highest level of watchmaking") on the website, wich we now have learned isn't completely accurate. Wich made me wonder, what about the B21, where the same is stated. Is that one a true in-house manufacture?

Another question regarding the B21 Bentley. Is there any design references to Bentley on the watch at all? I can't seem to find any on the images, nor in the descriptions. (Don't get me wrong, I like that the Bentley design elements has been toned down in recent models. Just wondering.)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:11 pm 
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no, we clearly differentiate between in-house and non-in-house, are very, very open about it (atypically so, if I may add, for Breitling of the past or many other major Swiss brands)

no, there are no external Bentley-markings on the Tourbillon LE - and no, it isn‘t an in-house caliber.


Is the Manufacture Caliber B21 of the Premier B21 Chronograph Tourbillon Bentley 42 Limited Edition an in-house caliber?

No, the Manufacture Caliber B21 is based on a La Joux-Perret caliber. La Joux-Perret is a high-end caliber manufacturer specialized in R&D and component manufacturing and well known for its tourbillon.

Manufacturing a tourbillon is no easy task requires specific knowledge. Relying on La Joux-Perret’s know-how, Breitling selected their tourbillon caliber, and not any tourbillon: a chronograph. Master at chronograph manufacturing, Breitling put the caliber to the test, ensuring a chronometric qualification. Furthermore, apart from the COSC-certification, Breitling put the caliber through a set of rigorous tests to ensure its perfect functioning. Specifically, the tourbillon cage was tested & homologated in all angles through procedures that require specific high-end measurement tooling.
Specific to Breitling, the La Joux-Perret caliber has :
• •rigorous testing & homologation as a "manufacture" caliber (hence 5-year warranty),
• •specific caliber "decorations",
• •specific oscillating weight (different from standard oscillating weights previously seen at Breitling)



Last edited by WatchFred on Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:12 pm 
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WatchFred wrote:
mesh seems best, but no decision yet, in discussion.


Given the 20mm lug width, the mesh from the SuperOcean will fit the 40mm chronograph. Whether it will look good is another matter.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:22 pm 
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WatchFred wrote:
...so I’m sure we’ll see other versions over the years.


So pleased to see a 40mm chronograph option - have tried on the standard 42mm Premier and it is not for me. I have the Schneider-era Grand Premier, which is lovely, but it is a thick little bugger, so I can see a changeover coming. Glad that we are likely to see some other dial options in the future (copper or salmon in steel looks great: hint, hint )


Last edited by arcadelt on Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:39 pm 
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Thank you for your prompt and thorough reply.

WatchFred wrote:
no, we clearly differentiate between in-house and non-in-house, are very, very open about it„


I'm probably misunderstanding something. When accessing the Breitling website for the B21 chronograph tourbillon 42 Bentley or the B25 Datora 42, it states that the movement is manufacture. Also, when selecting "in-house movement" as a filter, both the B21 and B25 appears in the list. So, If I hadn't read this forum thread, I would had no way of knowing that the movements are collaborations or built on a base from another producer. This is not ment as critique for not making them entirely in-house, I just feel like the product info on the web site could be clearer about this.

Regarding the B21 chronograph tourbillon Bentley: If there has been no inspiration or influence to the product by Bentley, then I don't understand the reference? Why is it then a Bentley edition? Is it a question of funding or something?

Again, thank you for taking the time to educate me and others, I really appreciate it!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:46 pm 
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WatchFred wrote:
calibers:

B09 is in-house manual wind, 70h power reserve, crown wheel vertical clutch, COSC

B15 is based on the B09, adds a split chronograph complication similar to the one used on the B03, but modernized/modified.

The rattrapante mechanism doesn’t function in the same way as on the B03, we stopped using the rubber gasket for our rattrapante calibers as it wasn’t industrially feasible. We now use a traditional gearing on an Inox wheel. The patented isolating system found in the B03 is also utilized in the B15.

So as “in-house” as it gets for the B15 - a new, unique caliber, designed and manufactured by Breitling.

The Manufacture Caliber B25 is based on a Concepto caliber. Concepto is a "manufacture de mouvements mécaniques d'exception", it isn’t “in-house” Breitling.

Breitling decided to develop the caliber with Concepto, relying on their strong watch-manufacturing knowledge. Breitling & Concepto jointly enhanced the base caliber with specific Breitling requirements. One of the major enhancements was made on the calendar drive mechanism to ensure a "saut de calendrier" (calendar break/change), making it more accurate and reliable. This lengthy modification & homologation process lasted 1,5 years in total.
Breitling will be the first Brand to use this upgraded Concepto caliber on the watch-market.
Specific to Breitling, the concepto caliber has :
• rigorous testing & homologation as a "manufacture" caliber (hence 5-year warranty),
• specific lubrification points,
• specific caliber "decorations",
• specific oscillating weight (different from standard oscillating weights previously seen at Breitling).

hope this helps (I have no explanation why R&D decided to call this the B25, agree it may be confused w/ the 25B, but shouldn’t be a huge issue)?

Thanks for the in-depth explanation Fred - most appreciated on what has no doubt been a very busy day for you and the team! :D

The B15 Duograph is singing to me like no other Breitling at the moment! :thumbsup: Absolutely beautiful and an in-house ratty is a heck of an achievement, and quite a rarity too. Got to say, I'd love to see that blue dial Duograph on some blue croco.

The B25 sounds like a very interesting development as well... plus the Datora it's in looks great. Winners all round!

(And yes, I'm glad to hear the B09 particularly might get a few other dial options at some point :D )

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:17 pm 
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Magulv wrote:
Thank you for your prompt and thorough reply.

WatchFred wrote:
no, we clearly differentiate between in-house and non-in-house, are very, very open about it„


I'm probably misunderstanding something. When accessing the Breitling website for the B21 chronograph tourbillon 42 Bentley or the B25 Datora 42, it states that the movement is manufacture. Also, when selecting "in-house movement" as a filter, both the B21 and B25 appears in the list. So, If I hadn't read this forum thread, I would had no way of knowing that the movements are collaborations or built on a base from another producer. This is not ment as critique for not making them entirely in-house, I just feel like the product info on the web site could be clearer about this.

Regarding the B21 chronograph tourbillon Bentley: If there has been no inspiration or influence to the product by Bentley, then I don't understand the reference? Why is it then a Bentley edition? Is it a question of funding or something?

Again, thank you for taking the time to educate me and others, I really appreciate it!


I'm sure Fred will chime in when he has a chance, but (somewhat sadly) "in-house" and "manufacture" aren't always as interchangeable in the watch world as most people think, and there are also significant shades of grey along the way. In it's simplest terms, "in-house" tends to mean the movement is conceived, designed and built by the company itself. Manufacture can mean the same as in-house, but it can also mean the movement was conceived and designed in conjunction with another partner. AND it can also mean a movement conceived and built by a 3rd party, but supplied to the company on an exclusive basis. Likewise this last example can also sometimes be called an "exclusive" movement. The Omega 3313 was an "exclusive" movement based on an F. Piguet calibre that was produced for them. All unnecessarily confusing IMO, but it's nigh on impossible to pigeon-hole every permutation of design and construction under a couple of headings.

At the purest end of the in-house scale, the likes of Seiko and Rolex are two of the most vertically integrated watch manufacturers in the world - in other words they conceive all their own designs, including movements, and they make practically every single component themselves. At the other end of the manufacture scale, there are movements like the Breitling B20 that is actually a Tudor MT5612 with a few changes, that is supplied to Breitling under an exclusive agreement. Personally I don't see that as being that different to buying in an ETA 2824, but opinions vary in that regard. As I say there's a significant grey area (and no definitive rule) in terms of defining how much needs to be built by the manufacturer itself for it to be considered truly in-house.

So as I say, on a personal note I think the concepts of "in-house", "manufacture" and "exclusive movements" can be confusing... and possibly intentionally so by some manufacturers.

With regards to the Bentley Tourbillon - Breitling have had a relationship with Bentley for many years now, including producing tourbillon pieces, so I guess this is just paying homage to the tourbillon Bentley models of a few years ago.

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